the crucifixion of jesus Watch

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hitchhiker_13
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Ralfskini)
It's totally illogical and physically sickening!
Illogical - it's meant to be one of the great mysteries of the catholic faith, of course it's not bloody logical!
I can see how you might think that it is physically sickening, but also how it can be interpreted as beautiful (I stress again that you are not chewing on a great big piece of raw flesh)
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yawn1
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#42
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(Original post by Ralfskini)
It's totally illogical and physically sickening!
If I were to say that comments like this did not irritate me enormously, then I would be lying!

Comments that are given flippantly, without any thought or consideration or knowledge are what is totally illogical and - dare I say it - physically sickening.

Christ gave up His life for mankind and the night before His death He took bread and wine and said "This in My body, this is My blood - do this in memory of me".

The Council of Trent (1551) summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: 'Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole sustance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blookd. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called 'transubstantiation'.

'It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. 'This is my body', he says. This word transforms the things offered.'
St. John Chrysostom - De prod. Jud. 1,6

In the Catholic church great respect is given to the Body and Blood of Christ (formerly the host and wine before transubstantiation) and great care is taken of any fragments remaining after distribution amongst the Faithful, handled only by the priest, deacon or properly instituted acolyte. Instructions on the Blessed Sacrament are considered of such great importance and deserving of ultimate respect that the Pope has issued a document on the matter!
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Uncledougsie
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#43
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(Original post by presebjenada)
but fear of going to hell shouldnt be the reason for people to be good.. maybe im being naive, but surely empathy and goodness should be at the forefront of everyone's minds without needing fear of punishment to motivate us? i know when i do a good deed.. i dont think of it as getting one step closer to going to heaven..
I agree. But I always tend to think of hell more as a warning than a threat. However, your statement does hint towards the belief that being a good person will get you sorted when you get to teh turnstyle at heaven fc. The Christian concept of grace states that we are all hellbound by default and that the grace of God (his free gift) is the only way to avoid it "Romans ch 3 - The wages of sin is death [spiritual death, that is to say hell] but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus".

(Original post by Yannis)
No he didn't die, even though countless people had seen him and even Mary testified.
So you think that he survied a roman flogging (sometimes fatal in itself), no sleep for almost 48 hours, a kick-in at the hands of a detatchment of roman legionarries (human pit bull terriers) and then crucifiction? To top it all off they stabed his corpse. Any decent doctor will tell yer that the fact that blood and water escaped from the wound probably means that the sack surrounding the heart was pierced, and that this usualy only happens when heart failure occurs.

The romans where extremely good at crucifiction and when they done it you generaly snuffed it no matter what. The contemporary historian Josephus remarked on it. He was walking down the road one day when (imagine his surprise) he bumped into 3 of his mates who had been crucified. As quick as a flash he shot over to the procurators house and asked his good friend to have them pardoned. They where all taken off the cross but of the 3 blokes who 'got off with it' 2 kicked the bucket anyway.

If you think he survived that you have more faith than I do mate. And I thought I was the fundmentalist!

(No offence meant by the way)
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hitchhiker_13
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#44
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(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
that is true, but catholics make quite a few changes that alter the religion, such as saying priests can actually forgive sins and the worship of mary.

But if you want really warped sects, try the mormans

No that's not true. Catholic priests do not forgive sins, they don't have the authority to do that. They act as mediators between the people and God.
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material breach
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#45
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(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
No that's not true. Catholic priests do not forgive sins, they don't have the authority to do that. They act as mediators between the people and God.
so who is forgiving the sins? and is it possible to have your sins forgiven without a priest?
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hitchhiker_13
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#46
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(Original post by Speciez99)
so who is forgiving the sins? and is it possible to have your sins forgiven without a priest?

God forgives the sins. So I think that yes it is possible to get forgiveness without going to confession with a priest, but it is encouraged as a way of showing contrition, and the priest can also offer guidance and give a penance.
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hitchhiker_13
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#47
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(Original post by piginapoke)
I was thinking of the 'sale of Indulgences'. http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0127b-almanac.htm

Ahh, a shameful episode in Catholic history.
It wasn't really a period to be proud of was it?
Anyway, thankfully they've stopped selling indulgences and I don't think any of the recent Popes have had illegitimate children.
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hitchhiker_13
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#48
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This bit -
The practice was current to the middle of the 20th century in Spain and Latin America, and may continue to this day
may or may not be true - I can't state certainly that it isn't but I've never heard any suggestion of it before.

Indulgences are still granted, but never for money as far as I know. Visiting certain religious places, or doing certain things can obtain indulgences for oneself, or praying for a dead relative on the Feast of All Souls (or maybe All Saints, I'm not sure) can get them some time off.
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yawn1
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#49
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(Original post by piginapoke)
I was thinking of the 'sale of Indulgences'. http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0127b-almanac.htm

As you have sought out 'sale of indulgences' you can , by the same means, seek the answer to your question by referring to 'binding and loosing' with empathsis on sprituality rather than sexual bondage!

An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Jesus Christ, intervenes in favour of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins.

When we confess our sins earnestly and with regret, we hope to obtain absolution but we must still make reparation. In the same way, a felon not only serves a punishment for say, theft, but also is expected to make good that theft to the victim in some way.

Only God forgives sin, but because of binding and loosing, Christ has authority on earth to forgive sins and by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name - to his apostolic ministry.
The regular confession of our sins (shared incidentally with the Anglican church) helps us form our conscience, fight against evil tendencies, let ourselves by healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit.
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yawn1
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(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
This bit -
The practice was current to the middle of the 20th century in Spain and Latin America, and may continue to this day
may or may not be true - I can't state certainly that it isn't but I've never heard any suggestion of it before.

Indulgences are still granted, but never for money as far as I know. Visiting certain religious places, or doing certain things can obtain indulgences for oneself, or praying for a dead relative on the Feast of All Souls (or maybe All Saints, I'm not sure) can get them some time off.
We have a hard job on our hands to clear up misconceptions about our Faith.

The best way to do this is to educate and inform - you are doing both very well.
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yawn1
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#51
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(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
that is true, but catholics make quite a few changes that alter the religion, such as saying priests can actually forgive sins and the worship of mary.

But if you want really warped sects, try the mormans
Another misconception you (and many others) have that needs clarification is your belief that Catholics worship Mary.

We don't!

Worship and adoration belong only to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As the mother of God the Church rightly honours the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. This very special devotion differs essentially from the adoration which is given to God and greatly fosters this adoration.

She is venerated and liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an 'epitome of the whole Gospel', express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

I often wonder whether these untruths that are spread about Catholicism are genuine errors because of lack of knowledge or whether it is deliberately done to undermine the Church.
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presebjenada
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#52
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so how are catholics/chrisians supposed to feel about the crucifixion? happy? sad? enlihgtened?
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Outrageous
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#53
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Dear PreseBjenda,

I am not sure form your post but have you read through the new testament in the bible. Many things may not make sense. But it was battle. Accroding to Christian history Jesus was crucifed and thus sacrificed in the name of God. Our sins then washed away with his. Supposedly. That ois not to say go out and sin away becasue he paid for them.

Its is believed that he was God's son due to the immaculate birth of Virgin Mary. Although it may seem like a weak ground. Anyhow so the son part need not be taken literally. It could also be metephorical. Many of the things in holy books can be ambigous and metaphorical.

There is anothe story in the bible - it was Abraham who was asked to kill son, Isak, as burnt offering to God. So given the choice god comes first. And that is essentially the logic.

Also there was David who had his newborn son killed by God as punishment for having Uriah killed. (2 Sam.12:15, 18)

Also see:

Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21
Children who are disobedient, or who curse or strike their parents are to be killed.

Dt.20:16, Jos.10:40
God ordered the Israelites to kill all of the children in the cities that they invaded.

Its really about how strong your faith is in God. He never down anything which need not be done and sometimes sacrifices are called for. Even if Jesus. But then the case of Jesus was extraordinary because he was chased by his enemies and was captured. But his death was meant to be. Apparently.

Does that make any sense? Or ask again.
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presebjenada
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#54
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#54
that did all make sense thankyou..and thanks for the references, as my knowledge of the bible is decidedly poor. i have difficulty understanding from a humanitarian point of view however, how a father can possibly kill his own son in the name of god.. how is that possible? and why does god need sacrifices? why should he expect men to make such sacrifices?
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#55
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(Original post by presebjenada)
that did all make sense thankyou..and thanks for the references, as my knowledge of the bible is decidedly poor. i have difficulty understanding from a humanitarian point of view however, how a father can possibly kill his own son in the name of god.. how is that possible? and why does god need sacrifices? why should he expect men to make such sacrifices?
Well God works in mysterious ways its said. I think there are a lot of issues that one can not grasp about faith. Some questions go answered. But I think in this case its about trying your faith. He was trying you. How strong is it and how far will you go. Pressumably you are meant to be willing to sacrifice yourself for God. Go to war for him. Fight in his name. And If Abraham was willing to slaughter his own flesh and blood like a lamb then who are we to question this. Although I am NOT saying don't question. Do that. And I shall try my best to give you the knowledge I have.
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hitchhiker_13
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#56
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(Original post by yawn1)
We have a hard job on our hands to clear up misconceptions about our Faith.

The best way to do this is to educate and inform - you are doing both very well.

Aww, thanks very much


(Original post by presebjenada)
so how are catholics/chrisians supposed to feel about the crucifixion? happy? sad? enlihgtened?
There's a whole mix of feelings - sadness for his suffering, some guilt for allowing it to happen because although it wasn't actually you it was the human race, and maybe it's just me who gets this guilt (during the Passion in the Easter Services the congregation plays the part of the crowd and has to shout, "Crucify him, crucify him - I feel awful!), happiness for what he has done for them - this huge sacrifice he has made, wonder at the strength of his love for humanity, and humility at the weight which he took upon himself as an ordinary human being to name but a few.
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presebjenada
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#57
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#57
(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
happiness for what he has done for them - this huge sacrifice he has made, wonder at the strength of his love for humanity, and humility at the weight which he took upon himself as an ordinary human being to name but a few.
so then is the happiness of the knowledge of his love for humanity greater than your feelings of the permanent guilt you should feel everytime you do something wrong? as shouldnt you then feel constantly inadequate/in the wrong/ not worthy of the sacrifice jesus made for you?
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hitchhiker_13
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(Original post by presebjenada)
so then is the happiness of the knowledge of his love for humanity greater than your feelings of the permanent guilt you should feel everytime you do something wrong? as shouldnt you then feel constantly inadequate/in the wrong/ not worthy of the sacrifice jesus made for you?
Yes as far as I am aware happiness should be, and normally is, dominant over any guilt you may feel. Otherwise, what's the point?
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