Are ISIS muslims?
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Original post by BaconandSauce
we know Muslims kill each other all the time this is known
Does killing though, not stop you being a muslim?
Does killing though, not stop you being a muslim?
lol
Original post by BaconandSauce
I've searched the quran and found nothing
you said this was in the quran so WHERE in the quran
'If there is evidence the person is Non-Muslim then you can. That is also mentioned in the Qu'ran.'
you said this was in the quran so WHERE in the quran
'If there is evidence the person is Non-Muslim then you can. That is also mentioned in the Qu'ran.'
I'm not here to convince you I'm just telling you stuff. If you really want to know then go and find out.
Original post by Onde
Actually, according to Islam, I'm not allowed to think what I want.
...and according to your own rules, you aren't a Muslim, but ISIS still could be.
...and according to your own rules, you aren't a Muslim, but ISIS still could be.
Sure whatever you say bro
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Original post by BaconandSauce
I won't progress the argument as you have failed to show me the statement you gave and option number 9 is somehow now incorrect
number 9 says they are muslim and you are a bad muslim (according to number 9)
But can I ask is English your first language?
number 9 says they are muslim and you are a bad muslim (according to number 9)
But can I ask is English your first language?
Based on his last two posts on here I would have to say I hope it isn't. If it is then he quite frankly cannot read or write himself in a remotely coherent manner let alone judge and critically assess great lengthy works such as the holy books.
Original post by SHBKhan
[QUOTE=i
That's not even important that I said he didn't have the capabilities to understand it. Why you focused on that instead of the actual topic is beyond me. Did it really scary you that much? Are you going to need counselling? Focus on the topic and get real. Stop being offended by the tiniest of things and changing the topic. It's a classic move
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That's not even important that I said he didn't have the capabilities to understand it. Why you focused on that instead of the actual topic is beyond me. Did it really scary you that much? Are you going to need counselling? Focus on the topic and get real. Stop being offended by the tiniest of things and changing the topic. It's a classic move
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Did it really scary me that much? I don't need counselling, you need an education. And you seem the one most offended here. I'm not even sure what I am supposed to be "scary" of.
Original post by SHBKhan
Lmao. Just shows I know more about Islam than you and you want to keep stating the same things because you can't progress in the argument because what you learnt doesn't let you because it's not true and what you learnt about Islam isn't what Islam really is. Sorry brug
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That sentence is not in English. Not one bit. The "brug" part I will assume is another insult to BaconSauce but it is not an English one.
Original post by SHBKhan
The No True Scotsman claim. What someone states when they are trying to sound brilliant in an argument but it doesn't even make sense or correlate with Islamic belief.
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I even provided you with a link saying what it was and you still managed to fluff it. All you had to do was copy and paste, not even understand it.
Original post by BaconandSauce
a perfect demonstration of your issues with the English language and logical fallacies
Agreed. Looks like I am never going to get a response in basic English let alone one that has evidence of any kind.
So petty insults, incoherent ramblings without sentences culminating in the "no true Scotsman" argument it is then from this guy and his ilk. I didn't expect much more.
Being a muslim and following Islam are two different things. Someone who believes in Tawhid (monotheism) and the Prophethood of Muhammad is a muslim, but Islam encompasses more than prophethood and monotheism. If a person believes in these two things but not in the original ideology of Islam taught by the Prophets, then they are muslim, but deviant.
And that is what ISIS are.
And that is what ISIS are.
Original post by Onde
The qur'an says "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
I am fully opposed to Islam, I find it abhorrently violent. I say this full knowledge of what it is about.
Do you therefore think it is justifiable for me to be slaughtered?
I am fully opposed to Islam, I find it abhorrently violent. I say this full knowledge of what it is about.
Do you therefore think it is justifiable for me to be slaughtered?
Dhalimuun means 'the oppressors', not 'the polytheists'. In this specific case, the polytheist leadership was indeed the oppressive party, but not in all cases.
Fitnah means 'social unrest' and has nothing to do with religious beliefs or practice.
In this light, the verse is clearly saying, 'Fight those who oppressed and continue to oppress you, but those who stop fighting - stop fighting them.'
Important to note that the preceding verse (2:190) says,
'Fight in the way of god those who fight against you, but do not initiate hositilies: Indeed, god does not love the aggressors.'
I don't even know what's happening anymore. No one wants to learn whether ISIS is Islamic or not and everyones getting mad over me being a bit silly with my English and because I said brug instead of Bruh. So im instantly wrong because you people can speak better English than me.
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SHBKhan, you're letting your own emotions get out of hand. If they follow the five pillars, who are we to say they aren't Muslim. Whether they are 'good' Muslims is another debate entirely.
[QUOTE="Onde;60524837"]No, it cannot. Muhammad's atrocities and the qur'an make it clear that Muslims should go out of their way to kill those who speak out against Islam or fail to convert, even if their opponents are others peaceful. (Because disbelief is worse than killing after all).
Lol ok absolutely
It's based on the Qu'rans interpretation.
Because you took that rule number 9 way too literally. That list isn't what is directly said in the Qu'ran it's an interpretation to make it simpler. No where is that number 9 rule written in the Qu'ran with the same words and the same letters. It's written in a different manner. Stop taking that rule literally. A journalist made that list based on the Quran not the Qu'ran itself
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Original post by Hibzish
And for OP i think its difficult to say whether any muslims represents islam really. We all try to follow but we arent perfect in following our religion.
That's all very well, apart from there IS one person that Muslims DO generally revere: Muhammad. Someone who was a paedophile, a slaver, a rapist, a genocidal warlord, and a bigoted zealot who had a book written that is the most violent of the Abrahamic faiths...indeed, it is one of the most violent books ever written.
That's all very well, apart from there IS one person that Muslims DO generally revere: Muhammad. Someone who was a paedophile, a slaver, a rapist, a genocidal warlord, and a bigoted zealot who had a book written that is the most violent of the Abrahamic faiths...indeed, it is one of the most violent books ever written.
Lol ok absolutely
Original post by Onde
Why isn't Rule 9 "Don't claim things without evidence" then?
Again, your claim that ISIS are not Muslims is based on your own interpretation, or perhaps, because you feel queasy about their actions.
You would be hard pressed to find some atrocity that ISIS have done that Muhammad himself do not do and attempt to justify as Islamic.
Again, your claim that ISIS are not Muslims is based on your own interpretation, or perhaps, because you feel queasy about their actions.
You would be hard pressed to find some atrocity that ISIS have done that Muhammad himself do not do and attempt to justify as Islamic.
It's based on the Qu'rans interpretation.
Because you took that rule number 9 way too literally. That list isn't what is directly said in the Qu'ran it's an interpretation to make it simpler. No where is that number 9 rule written in the Qu'ran with the same words and the same letters. It's written in a different manner. Stop taking that rule literally. A journalist made that list based on the Quran not the Qu'ran itself
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ISIS cannot be considered non muslim because of their ideology and policy conflicting with important islamic principles and commandments. Their ideology is 'an' islamic one, but it is not necessarily the ideology of Prophet Muhammad (sawas).
Original post by Kyou
SHBKhan, you're letting your own emotions get out of hand. If they follow the five pillars, who are we to say they aren't Muslim. Whether they are 'good' Muslims is another debate entirely.
Because there are rules in Islam which if broken will make you no longer a part of Islam according to the Qu'ran and what is written inside it. It's not what I'm saying. It's what the Qu'ran says.
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Original post by SHBKhan
Because there are rules in Islam which if broken will make you no longer a part of Islam according to the Qu'ran and what is written inside it. It's not what I'm saying. It's what the Qu'ran says.
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Only God knows if what they are doing takes them out of Islam or not. You don't.
[QUOTE="Onde;60524837"]No, it cannot. Muhammad's atrocities and the qur'an make it clear that Muslims should go out of their way to kill those who speak out against Islam or fail to convert, even if their opponents are others peaceful. (Because disbelief is worse than killing after all).
I completely disagree with your statements. Muhammad never made slaves from free people, and those he accepted (such as his wife Mary the Copt) he freed upon reception. He was neither a rapist nor a pedophile, marrying Aisha when she was 19 contrary to the fabrications found in Bukhari and Muslim (according to evidence I can give and explain should I be asked to). He was not a genocidal warlord, only executing those members of Banu Qurayza who were members of the faction who turned on the muslims in a military manner.
Of course, anti-islamists and salafi extremists of the wahaabi, taymmiyist, qutbist and deobandi ideologies will disagree to me based upon traditional sunni historical books and hadiths.
Original post by Hibzish
And for OP i think its difficult to say whether any muslims represents islam really. We all try to follow but we arent perfect in following our religion.
That's all very well, apart from there IS one person that Muslims DO generally revere: Muhammad. Someone who was a paedophile, a slaver, a rapist, a genocidal warlord, and a bigoted zealot who had a book written that is the most violent of the Abrahamic faiths...indeed, it is one of the most violent books ever written.
That's all very well, apart from there IS one person that Muslims DO generally revere: Muhammad. Someone who was a paedophile, a slaver, a rapist, a genocidal warlord, and a bigoted zealot who had a book written that is the most violent of the Abrahamic faiths...indeed, it is one of the most violent books ever written.
I completely disagree with your statements. Muhammad never made slaves from free people, and those he accepted (such as his wife Mary the Copt) he freed upon reception. He was neither a rapist nor a pedophile, marrying Aisha when she was 19 contrary to the fabrications found in Bukhari and Muslim (according to evidence I can give and explain should I be asked to). He was not a genocidal warlord, only executing those members of Banu Qurayza who were members of the faction who turned on the muslims in a military manner.
Of course, anti-islamists and salafi extremists of the wahaabi, taymmiyist, qutbist and deobandi ideologies will disagree to me based upon traditional sunni historical books and hadiths.
Original post by Kyou
Only God knows if what they are doing takes them out of Islam or not. You don't.
I just said I am not making these rules. God brought the Qu'ran to Muhammad as a revelation. So is the Qu'ran not the word of God and therefore the Qu'ran is what God knows and if it takes them out of Islam?
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Original post by SHBKhan
Because there are rules in Islam which if broken will make you no longer a part of Islam according to the Qu'ran and what is written inside it. It's not what I'm saying. It's what the Qu'ran says.
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Please give references brother. As far as I know the only situation where it is halaal to perform takfir upon a person is when they themselves deny being muslim or deny the shahadah. Also, the way you interpret the verses you refer to may be different to the way others interpret.
Original post by Hasan_Ahmed
Please give references brother. As far as I know the only situation where it is halaal to perform takfir upon a person is when they themselves deny being muslim or deny the shahadah. Also, the way you interpret the verses you refer to may be different to the way others interpret.
Interpretation plays a big role. Im not interested in giving references right now because I don't feel they would listen to them anyway. The Qu'ran states in multiple places different things which a Muslim does which doesn't make his a Muslim anymore. Does it not state that a Muslim who doesn't perform salat is a non-Muslim?
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Original post by SHBKhan
No the Qu'ran isn't clear about killing people who not Muslims.
But it must be; it states that it is perfect and that it is written in clear language. Who are you to contradict the word of the Koran?
Original post by SHBKhan
Interpretation plays a big role.
But that can't be true. The Koran states it is perfect and clear, and forbids anyone, even Mohammed, to add anything or to interpret its words. Are you sure you are a Moslem?
Original post by SHBKhan
Does it not state that a Muslim who doesn't perform salat is a non-Muslim?
But the people in ISIS do perform salat.
Original post by Onde
The qur'an said this in the context of the Meccans refusing to allow the Muslims to go on Haj in their city. So basically, it is saying "if they don't allow you to practice your beliefs in their own land, slaughter them". Further, it says slaughter them until everyone is a Muslim, so perceived unrest because of differences of opinion in matters of religion is more relevant than "social unrest". But to a Muslim, they would have amounted to the same thing.
Regardless, the qur'an still says that you should slaughter everyone until everybody is Muslim.
It also has verses such as "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
...basically telling Muslims to go out of their way to kill unbelievers who are no threat to them (although Muslis and daleks would disagree, as unbelievers are a "threat" on account of having a different opinion). If the unbelievers were a threat, you wouldn't wait several months to attack them. (There are also other verses which tells Muslims to go out of their wage to kill unbelievers for Allah).
Regardless, the qur'an still says that you should slaughter everyone until everybody is Muslim.
It also has verses such as "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
...basically telling Muslims to go out of their way to kill unbelievers who are no threat to them (although Muslis and daleks would disagree, as unbelievers are a "threat" on account of having a different opinion). If the unbelievers were a threat, you wouldn't wait several months to attack them. (There are also other verses which tells Muslims to go out of their wage to kill unbelievers for Allah).
The verse was referring to the course of action to be taken -after- the retaking of Makkah.
9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent , establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful .
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety . That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
When we read from verse 1, it states that there was a treaty which the mushrikeen had broken. The Quran gives them four months. Verse 9:4 states that Allah will punish those who broke the treaty. This verse is only aimed at those who broke the treaty, it did not affect those who abided by it.
I think you need to start reading the chapters of the verses that you've been learning, rather than just reading them alone.
The quran does not say to 'kill everyone until everyone is muslim' in any case. If that was the case, there'd be no such thing as dhimmis.
Original post by Good bloke
But that can't be true. The Koran states it is perfect and clear, and forbids anyone, even Mohammed, to add anything or to interpret its words. Are you sure you are a Moslem?
No, it doesn't.
(3:7)It is He who has sent down to you, the book - in it are verses clear - they are the foundation of the Book- and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviancy, they will use that of it which is unspecific, seeking to sow discord and an interpretation suitable to their desires. And no one knows its true interpretation except Allah and those those vested in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All of it is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded by them except those of understanding.
The main reason ISIS are not Islamic is because they are considered Khwarij. Research that word. It will tell you a lot about them.
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