Above all, the Islamist extremists want to divide us and turn us against each other

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Fullofsurprises
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Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
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Elizabeth II
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Thank you. I totally agree. At this time, we know nothing of the events apart from what the media have told us or friends and family you may have in Paris (of which, I do). The display of solidarity shown last night in Paris is admirable and should be reflected in the actions of all in the coming days. Let's not start spouting hate and vicious comments to a group which is peaceful for the majority; let's band together as a community and keep the people of Paris, France and the families of the dead in our thoughts.
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Captain Jack
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
Well said.

The correct response to hate is love. Our values will not be changed because of the acts of the few.
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shawn_o1
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It's too easy to destroy. They can destroy anything they want. As long as we do not let them destroy our bonds, we are safe.
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BaconandSauce
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
We can only keep these values if we fight against those who would take them away

Islam is now of the things that would take them away (notice I say one of the things not the only thing)

Muslims saying Islam is the truth are the people who will support the ideology that aims to take this away.
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Aj12
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
This seems to be the least known, yet main aim of groups like Al qaeda and other such groups. Bin Laden and others in jihadist circles made frequent mention of it. Shame so many people play into their hands.

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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Aj12)
This seems to be the least known, yet main aim of groups like Al qaeda and other such groups. Bin Laden and others in jihadist circles made frequent mention of it. Shame so many people play into their hands.

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Yes, I agree, I'm sure that the demented game plan amongst leading extremist circles is that it will boost recruitment, via an expansion of hate attacks, profiling-based harassment, etc. The aim is to increase fear and loathing in both Muslim and majority communities in the EU.

France has been targeted this time, but it could easily be London next. When that happens (it seems almost inevitable that it will, not that I wish to be pessimistic but I think we should be aware), we must be ready to counter revenge attacks and stereotyping.
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moggis
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If that's what they are trying to achieve then presumably there will be many more such attacks.

Fortunately most people seem to realise that the solution is to take their anger out on our politicians rather than innocent Muslims.

Thus Britain will surely be voting to leave the EU and Europeans will be lurching to the right.

Hopefully that counts as 'enlightenment'?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes, I agree, I'm sure that the demented game plan amongst leading extremist circles is that it will boost recruitment, via an expansion of hate attacks, profiling-based harassment, etc. The aim is to increase fear and loathing in both Muslim and majority communities in the EU.

France has been targeted this time, but it could easily be London next. When that happens (it seems almost inevitable that it will, not that I wish to be pessimistic but I think we should be aware), we must be ready to counter revenge attacks and stereotyping.
Although there is a real threat to the UK and although it smacks of victim blaming, France does have a problem with its local Muslim youth seemingly greater than that in other European countries and appears to have poorer intelligence on them.

This was a large scale attack that has more or less come out of the blue. The indications from the concert hall were that the perpetrators had local accents. We will find out in the next few days whether they were on the security radar. My guess will be they were at a very low level where there will have been tens of thousands of others.
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Phoebe Buffay
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(Original post by Captain Jack)
Well said.

The correct response to hate is love. Our values will not be changed because of the acts of the few.
What an utterly stupid thing to say.

These people hate us. And they would happily kill us, without hesitation. And you think that the correct response is love? Love will not protect people from bullet fire, or suicide bombers.

And do spare us - 'the acts of the few'. A few it was, but they are supported by many more.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Although there is a real threat to the UK and although it smacks of victim blaming, France does have a problem with its local Muslim youth seemingly greater than that in other European countries and appears to have poorer intelligence on them.

This was a large scale attack that has more or less come out of the blue. The indications from the concert hall were that the perpetrators had local accents. We will find out in the next few days whether they were on the security radar. My guess will be they were at a very low level where there will have been tens of thousands of others.
France has done less well than the UK (although it's not great here) at integration or assimilation, the migrant communities in Paris and other large French cities are highly segregated and their poor 'banlieue' areas are subjected to discriminatory behaviour by the police and public authorities on a scale that would be considered appalling here. So yes, French society is certainly not blameless and an arrogant style of conduct by the dominant white community and the upper middle class leadership in Paris certainly doesn't help.. Looking at the bigger picture though, I think that's just another reason why the ISIS or A-Q 'planners' would feel motivated to target Paris in particular. In addition, many more French young Muslims have joined ISIS in the past than from other EU countries.

It's like a war where the enemy picks on lines of weakness.
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moggis
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
What an utterly stupid thing to say.

These people hate us. And they would happily kill us, without hesitation. And you think that the correct response is love? Love will not protect people from bullet fire, or suicide bombers.

And do spare us - 'the acts of the few'. A few it was, but they are supported by many more.

I make no personal comment about this post other than to say that it would receive at least 50 recommendations on The Times Online website without a doubt.
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TaintedLight
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Great thread. Couldn't have said it better. Completely agreed. As much as I hate to say those guys at ISIS really have an invisible hand to control the public's perception about Islam and tolerance.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
What an utterly stupid thing to say.

These people hate us. And they would happily kill us, without hesitation. And you think that the correct response is love? Love will not protect people from bullet fire, or suicide bombers.

And do spare us - 'the acts of the few'. A few it was, but they are supported by many more.
What you call utterly stupid has over 2000 years built the civilisation in which you live; a civilisation which for every Muslim wishing to destroy it, a thousand Muslims are treking hundreds of miles and risking death to join.
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tomriddle
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Western society has developed an "Us vs. Them" mentality which divides Muslims from the rest of society and makes it easier for attacks on Muslims, a prime example being the way the media presents Islam, so that it is associated with terrorism, so that Muslims are attacked for their religion.


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Farm_Ecology
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(Original post by moggis)
Fortunately most people seem to realise that the solution is to take their anger out on our politicians rather than innocent Muslims.
Why is it the fault of our politicians?
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TheArtofProtest
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(Original post by Farm_Ecology)
Why is it the fault of our politicians?
Because politicians expect that they can act with impunity with foreign policies and protect their borders. When the latter fails, people don't think rationally and address the root cause by directing their anger at the government.

They look for someone to take their anger and vengeance out on and usually, it's the people who look similar to the perpetrators, which most politicians do not.


If the French Cabinet were mostly of a brown shade, they would be expected to step down for their failings and the people's anger would be dimmed. But where you have hardly anyone in a position of responsibility, it looks like nothing is being done so people try and take the law into their own hands and one way they can do that, is to harbour ill will and hateful thoughts towards a minority that perhaps isn't even responsible.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Phoebe Buffay)
What an utterly stupid thing to say.

These people hate us. And they would happily kill us, without hesitation. And you think that the correct response is love? Love will not protect people from bullet fire, or suicide bombers.

And do spare us - 'the acts of the few'. A few it was, but they are supported by many more.
Not many people support mass murder, even if they feel anger and dislike for another group. However, an atmosphere of hate, which is what the terrorists want to promote, does lead to situations where more people do support killing. That's what happened in places like Bosnia, where hate between the communities built up and up over the years and more and more revenge killing ends up being the norm.
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kka25
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
Well said.
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.
There will be anti-Muslim threads popping up, but are they from new people who have just decided to hate Muslims in the light of yesterday's attack, or are they from people who have posting histories of posting weekly anti-Muslim threads anyway....?
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