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ISIS created/trained by big powers...revealed Snowden.

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Original post by MatureStudent36
So what's your explaination for the rise of Islamic extremists in Nigeria?

What's your explaination of Islamic extremists in Somalia?

What's your explaination for the rise of Islamic extremists in China?

What's your explaination for the rise of Islamic extremists in the Phillipines?

What's your explaination for the rise of Islamic extremists in Indonesia?


.... Can you please answer my question first? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. I don't have explanations for the rise of Islamic extremists <insert your favorite developing country that has a religious majority>. Slipping into over simplification is not my forte.


Original post by RFowler
I'm getting a bit sick of all these "US/the west created and trained ISIS" conspiracy theories. They're often based on factual inaccuracies and huge gaps in knowledge.

The US trained and supplied the Iraqi army, which later fled from places like Mosul and Tikrit, leaving large quantities of weapons in ISIS hands, including artillery and armoured vehicles and the like. This was widely reported around the time of ISIS' summer 2014 offensive across northern Iraq, so it's not like this is obscure knowledge you can understand someone overlooking. And it wasn't just US weapons either - older Russian tanks and BMPs were captured as well.

Spoiler



All your points are valid and correct. You should consider mentioning the power vacuum created in Iraq during the invasion. Then maybe how this destabilized the region enabling militants to thrive and nurture hate against the "west". Then maybe, arming and funding "moderate rebels", which gradually disintegrated to follow other militant factions.
Original post by DiceTheSlice

All your points are valid and correct. You should consider mentioning the power vacuum created in Iraq during the invasion. Then maybe how thied the region enabling militants to thrive and nurture hate against the "west". Then maybe, arming and funding "moderate rebels", which gradually disintegrated to follow other militant factions.


You have a point. But those are not the same as the USA deliberately creating and supporting ISIS, which some deluded conspiracy theorists like to claim.
Original post by RFowler
You have a point. But those are not the same as the USA deliberately creating and supporting ISIS, which some deluded conspiracy theorists like to claim.


Yes, I don't buy into that claim either. But I think it's fair to say had it not been for destabilizing the regime and leaving behind a vulnerable nation, ISIS wouldn't be the force it is today.

Also here is an interesting article, I recommend everyone to read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-the-islamic-state-militants-saddam-husseins/2015/04/04/aa97676c-cc32-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html?tid=ss_tw

The article explains how ISIS is an evolution of Saddam Hussein's regime. And the figures who were involved in Saddam's inner circle is now running his regime with a fancier name.

Spoiler

(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DiceTheSlice
Yes, I don't buy into that claim either. But I think it's fair to say had it not been for destabilizing the regime and leaving behind a vulnerable nation, ISIS wouldn't be the force it is today.

Also here is an interesting article, I recommend everyone to read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-the-islamic-state-militants-saddam-husseins/2015/04/04/aa97676c-cc32-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html?tid=ss_tw

The article explains how ISIS is an evolution of Saddam Hussein's regime. And the figures who were involved in Saddam's inner circle is now running his regime with a fancier name.

Spoiler



What's the reason behind the religious crazies in Nigeria, Indonesia, China and the phillipines?
Original post by MatureStudent36
What's the reason behind the religious crazies in Nigeria, Indonesia, China and the phillipines?


lol I don't know. Unlike you I have no problem in admitting something I don't know. Nor do I embrace bigotry. Either answer the question I asked you first, or stop wasting my time.

Tata.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
lol I don't know. Unlike you I have no problem in admitting something I don't know. Nor do I embrace bigotry. Either answer the question I asked you first, or stop wasting my time.

Tata.


ISIS have gained ground in Syria and Iraq not helped by the weakens security situation. However radical Islamists have also gained ground in Nigeria, Indonesia, China and the phillipines that don't have a weakened security situation.
Original post by MatureStudent36
ISIS have gained ground in Syria and Iraq not helped by the weakens security situation. However radical Islamists have also gained ground in Nigeria, Indonesia, China and the phillipines that don't have a weakened security situation.


....Other than beating around the bush, you have failed to answer my question yet again. Let me waste my time quoting myself again.


Original post by DiceTheSlice
Well their rise to savagery can be attributable to US's actions in Iraq and Sryia... Are you denying this?



Original post by DiceTheSlice
.... Can you please answer my question first? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. I don't have explanations for the rise of Islamic extremists <insert your favorite developing country that has a religious majority>. Slipping into over simplification is not my forte.


Read and Interpret.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
....Other than beating around the bush, you have failed to answer my question yet again. Let me waste my time quoting myself again.







Read and Interpret.


I've answered your question. I merely pointed out that radicalised Islamic terrorist groups appear in other country's both inside and outside the Middle East that haven't seen western involvement.

The real answer is that it's on the rise.

In fact, when you look into the issue at hand, a lot of the key Isis fighters who are highly experienced are the ones that went into Bosnia due to a lack of western involvement.

You're finding evidence to fit your narrative rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I've answered your question. I merely pointed out that radicalised Islamic terrorist groups appear in other country's both inside and outside the Middle East that haven't seen western involvement.

The real answer is that it's on the rise.

In fact, when you look into the issue at hand, a lot of the key Isis fighters who are highly experienced are the ones that went into Bosnia due to a lack of western involvement.

You're finding evidence to fit your narrative rather than looking at the bigger picture.


1) Train yourself to clearly and thoroughly answer a simple question. Based on your posts, I'm going to say you disagree that US actions lead to the creation of Isis. Glad that's out of the way.

2) The real answer is the political vacuums, or corrupt governance, creates tensions among citizens and will lead to confrontation, civil war and violence.

3) Most Isis "fighters" are teens and jobless adults from all walks of life trying to fulfill a purpose in their wretched lives. The senior "sheikhs" of Isis are mostly from Iraq itself. Bosnia is country with high unemployment and corruption among government officials. Although I don't believe Bosnia is the biggest exporter for foot soldiers, I won't be surprised if they are.

4) Ironic.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
1) Train yourself to clearly and thoroughly answer a simple question. Based on your posts, I'm going to say you disagree that US actions lead to the creation of Isis. Glad that's out of the way.

2) The real answer is the political vacuums, or corrupt governance, creates tensions among citizens and will lead to confrontation, civil war and violence.

3) Most Isis "fighters" are teens and jobless adults from all walks of life trying to fulfill a purpose in their wretched lives. The senior "sheikhs" of Isis are mostly from Iraq itself. Bosnia is country with high unemployment and corruption among government officials. Although I don't believe Bosnia is the biggest exporter for foot soldiers, I won't be surprised if they are.

4) Ironic.


I've not said anything like that.

The civil war in Syria has allowed Isis to take a foothold in Syria who in turn have spread across the border into northern Iraq.

I have also pointed out that similar radical islamise groups have gained a foothold without the back drop of a civil war.

Most ISIS fighters are pond life. The high end Jihadis however have learnt their trade in places like Bosnia and Chechnya. The high end guys train and lead the pond life.
Interesting...
Original post by queen-bee
Interesting...


Except it's been established in page 1 that OP's sources are hoaxes and that Snowden has never said anything of the sort.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I've not said anything like that.

The civil war in Syria has allowed Isis to take a foothold in Syria who in turn have spread across the border into northern Iraq.

I have also pointed out that similar radical islamise groups have gained a foothold without the back drop of a civil war.

Most ISIS fighters are pond life. The high end Jihadis however have learnt their trade in places like Bosnia and Chechnya. The high end guys train and lead the pond life.


1) Good grief, common mate settle this with a Yes/No. Did the US invasion/actions in Iraq and Syria led to the creation of ISIS?!

2) I agree.

3) But radical groups are formed in every country. Even Greece has a radical group. Myanmar, India, Bangladesh to name a few more. If the government is not catering to its diverse citizens, then radical groups are an inevitable consequence.

4) Articles I've read all pointed out that training camps and schools are in Libya/A-Stan/Iraq/Syria. Al Nusra's presence in Chechnya can explain "high-end" fighters defecting to isis but not really convinced with your Bosnia claim.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
1) Good grief, common mate settle this with a Yes/No. Did the US invasion/actions in Iraq and Syria led to the creation of ISIS?!

2) I agree.

3) But radical groups are formed in every country. Even Greece has a radical group. Myanmar, India, Bangladesh to name a few more. If the government is not catering to its diverse citizens, then radical groups are an inevitable consequence.

4) Articles I've read all pointed out that training camps and schools are in Libya/A-Stan/Iraq/Syria. Al Nusra's presence in Chechnya can explain "high-end" fighters defecting to isis but not really convinced with your Bosnia claim.


No it didn't create ISIS. They were already there.
Original post by MatureStudent36
No it didn't create ISIS. They were already there.


And there you have it. Your answer is a "No, US didn't create ISIS."

On a literal context you are right, they didn't create isis. But they certainly did create a heaven for these guys to thrive and breed in Iraq and Syria. And I think you agree with that - just reluctant to type it out.

Work on answering questions with a little honesty next time.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
And there you have it. Your answer is a "No, US didn't create ISIS."

On a literal context you are right, they didn't create isis. But they certainly did create a heaven for these guys to thrive and breed in Iraq and Syria. And I think you agree with that - just reluctant to type it out.

Work on answering questions with a little honesty next time.


Out of interest, what's your take on Iran and Russia's involvement? After all they have been instrumental in causing the Syrian civil war to drag on.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Out of interest, what's your take on Iran and Russia's involvement? After all they have been instrumental in causing the Syrian civil war to drag on.


According to Syrian Network for Human Rights in the month of October alone Russian & Assad forces struck more than 1500+ civilians when the US coalition struck a grand total of 1.

This could be a build up for a Russia Vs US proxy War.

Turkey, and Nato teaming up, after the Russian Jet debacle is also creating more of you know .... alienation.
Original post by mak48
When the 'uprising' against Bashar of Syria started, I remember him going on tv stating these rebels were actually mercenaries and terrorists , and did not represent Syrian general population. I will put my hand up and admit that I, alongwith many, thought it was just propaganda from the dictator.

Fast forward to today, now these terrorists have taken over big parts of old Mesopotamia, and are killing people mercilessly. So much so that even Al qaeda, another evil terrorist group, have condemned them when they blew up a mosque in July, with fellow Muslims dying from the explosion. Then came the Paris attack - which is beyond anything group of human are capable of.

We know certain big powers created Al Qaeda and gave them guns to fight against USSR in the 90s. Now that they have become self aware, was there a vacuum created that needed to be filled with another group, that will overthrow governments at the direction of certain big powers.

How else can you explain the reluctance of some big powers in destroying this brand with drones once and for all, and the emergence of heavy artillary, armoured vehicles within the arsenal of this group. Are there super powers who do not wish their 'investments' to be harmed?

We want the truth- we smell lies just like the lie to get us into Iraq.


Assad deliberately radicalised the opposition, freeing Islamists from prison and allowing them to join the ranks of the Islamist rebels. He wanted to make this conflict a binary choice between him or the Islamists. This is, of course, to most intelligent people, a false dichotomy. There IS a third way. The FSA, who still exist (but are poorly armed and fragmented) are ready and waiting for stronger Western support.

Btw, Assad gave funding and free movement to ISIS when it was Al-Qaeda in Iraq and helped them to kill American and British soldiers, so for him to present himself as an enemy of terrorists is rich.
Original post by DiceTheSlice
And there you have it. Your answer is a "No, US didn't create ISIS."

On a literal context you are right, they didn't create isis. But they certainly did create a heaven for these guys to thrive and breed in Iraq and Syria. And I think you agree with that - just reluctant to type it out.

Work on answering questions with a little honesty next time.


Assad created that haven. He gunned down and disappeared protesters, encouraging radicals to sow seeds of discord among the opposition. Just as Louis XVI's mistakes in the French Revolution encouraged rabid republican demagogues to rise to the fore and seize leadership of the country, so Assad's own callous and systematic slaughter of his own people has given free rein to the terrorists, which he wanted in the first place.

The U.S. has done very little in Syria besides giving fairly useless communications equipment to the FSA and mouth platitudes about how Assad is illegitimate and he should be removed.
(edited 8 years ago)

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