There are Muslim Extremists and Secular Extremists

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newpersonage
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I am caught in the crossfire of the battle between ISIS and the "West" .

The secular extremists believe that, as Obama said, they have the "Universal Values". This group call themselves the "West" although there is no such country. Al Qaeda started the war because the Universal Values were being introduced all over the Middle East, and this created trouble in Saudi Arabia. Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi religious policeman (and wealthy member of the Bin Laden family) who swore to stop the "West", with bloodshed if necessary. Successors such as those who call themselves Islamic State (although they have no state) are just pursuing the same agenda.

I have no truck with either set of extremists. People should be able to lead the lives they desire in their own countries.

The secular extremists are just another "lets rule the world" group of maniacs. They are using economic and media power to conquer, creating the European Union, TTIP, global government etc. They are scum because they are depriving those who want to be diverse of their nation states. The muslims are no better, they want a Caliphate, which is the same idea. Its a shame that they have to fight all over my favourite world.
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Betelgeuse-
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God damn west trying to impose its dont enslave, behead people and rape kids rules and mantra. The west and Isis are both sides of the same coin!

They bloody did it to the Nazis too!
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tengentoppa
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The western world's values of democracy, freedom and humanism can't really be equated to the depravity we see in the Middle East.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
God damn west trying to impose its dont enslave, behead people and rape kids rules and mantra. The west and Isis are both sides of the same coin!

They bloody did it to the Nazis too!
That's what I mean, you are absolutely convinced that because you have the "Universal Values" any intrusion into other countries is justified. It was that attitude that started the war. In fact its that attitude that starts all wars.
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Gears265
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Another apologist for extremism and terror. I look forward to the continuing divide in Europe between you left wing lot and the rest of us
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Betelgeuse-
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(Original post by newpersonage)
That's what I mean, you are absolutely convinced that because you have the "Universal Values" any intrusion into other countries is justified. It was that attitude that started the war. In fact its that attitude that starts all wars.
Sometimes war is the lesser evil. Are you foreal?!

If you saw a man raping a women in the street, would you call the police / intervene or walk on by?
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newpersonage
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(Original post by tengentoppa)
The western world's values of democracy, freedom and humanism can't really be equated to the depravity we see in the Middle East.
You missed the point. No matter how worthy you believe yourself to be it does not mean that it is right to poke about in other people's cultures by imposing dictators, military bases and trade agreements. Such behaviour terminates your sainthood.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
Sometimes war is the lesser evil. Are you foreal?!

If you saw a man raping a women in the street, would you call the police / intervene or walk on by?
In a foreign country I would get the rapist to desist and inform the foreign police, I would not agitate for an invasion because I think I am so holy. That would be like being a member of ISIS...
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tengentoppa
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(Original post by newpersonage)
You missed the point. No matter how worthy you believe yourself to be it does not mean that it is right to poke about in other people's cultures by imposing dictators, military bases and trade agreements. Such behaviour terminates your sainthood.
That's not secular extremisms though. That's machiavellian and callous foreign policy

Wanting to promote the values groups like ISIS can be desribed as Muslim extremism. But wanting to promote Western values cannot be seen as secular extremism, because there is nothing extreme about those values.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Gears265)
Another apologist for extremism and terror. I look forward to the continuing divide in Europe between you left wing lot and the rest of us
No I am not, I think Secular Extremists are ignorant scum and ISIS are just as bad. I dont apologise for either and I am certainly not left wing.
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Betelgeuse-
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(Original post by newpersonage)
In a foreign country I would get the rapist to desist and inform the foreign police, I would not agitate for an invasion because I think I am so holy. That would be like being a member of ISIS...
Why do you feel justified in preventing that man being allowed to rape but believe a country is not justified to intervene and prevent a country that practices rape en masse?
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newpersonage
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(Original post by tengentoppa)
That's not secular extremisms though. That's machiavellian and callous foreign policy

Wanting to promote the values groups like ISIS can be desribed as Muslim extremism. But wanting to promote Western values cannot be seen as secular extremism, because there is nothing extreme about those values.
The values may be extreme to people who oppose them. I believe many western values are fine in western countries. But there is the rub, I do not believe that western values should be imposed, as they have been imposed in Egypt and Iraq.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
Why do you feel justified in preventing that man being allowed to rape but believe a country is not justified to intervene and prevent a country that practices rape en masse?
Many, perhaps most, modern countries occurred because people wanted their own culture. The Netherlands split from the Holy Roman/Habsburg Empire because they wanted to be protestant, the French because they wanted to be French etc. Just because you have a list of "Universal Values" does not entitle you to shut down all possibility of dissent.
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Betelgeuse-
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(Original post by newpersonage)
Many, perhaps most, modern countries occurred because people wanted their own culture. The Netherlands split from the Holy Roman/Habsburg Empire because they wanted to be protestant, the French because they wanted to be French etc. Just because you have a list of "Universal Values" does not entitle you to shut down all possibility of dissent.
You didnt answer the question
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
You didnt answer the question
The question was about rape. I answered that one earlier, its for the foreign police to deal with it according to their culture. Be clear that when other people are having wars it is always possible to be morally outraged. War is a moral outrage. This does not justify joining in.
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Betelgeuse-
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(Original post by newpersonage)
The question was about rape. I answered that one earlier, its for the foreign police to deal with it according to their culture. Be clear that when other people are having wars it is always possible to be morally outraged. War is a moral outrage. This does not justify joining in.
No you ignore this question:

"Why do you feel justified in preventing that man being allowed to rape but believe a country is not justified to intervene and prevent a country that practices rape en masse?"

Its important you answer it if I am to understand your position
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
No you ignore this question:

"Why do you feel justified in preventing that man being allowed to rape but believe a country is not justified to intervene and prevent a country that practices rape en masse?"

Its important you answer it if I am to understand your position
I love travelling and have been to much of the world. What I do know for certain is that journalists never report the truth and people are probably never universally bad. So no, I would not support intervening militarily in a country that appears to practice rape. I might be in favour of cordoning them off and not trading with them if it genuinely seems that rape is being practiced. But we really don't know what is going on in other countries, especially during conflicts.

In the Middle East it is for the Turks, Iranians, Egyptians, Pakistanis etc. to sort out what is happening. "Western" intervention is not required.
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Howard
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(Original post by newpersonage)
I am caught in the crossfire of the battle between ISIS and the "West" .

The secular extremists believe that, as Obama said, they have the "Universal Values". This group call themselves the "West" although there is no such country. Al Qaeda started the war because the Universal Values were being introduced all over the Middle East, and this created trouble in Saudi Arabia. Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi religious policeman (and wealthy member of the Bin Laden family) who swore to stop the "West", with bloodshed if necessary. Successors such as those who call themselves Islamic State (although they have no state) are just pursuing the same agenda.

I have no truck with either set of extremists. People should be able to lead the lives they desire in their own countries.

The secular extremists are just another "lets rule the world" group of maniacs. They are using economic and media power to conquer, creating the European Union, TTIP, global government etc. They are scum because they are depriving those who want to be diverse of their nation states. The muslims are no better, they want a Caliphate, which is the same idea. Its a shame that they have to fight all over my favourite world.
Must be a difficult tight rope to walk. I can see how you'd be confused and aren't quite sure which side to fall in with. It's a toughy.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Howard)
Must be a difficult tight rope to walk. I can see how you'd be confused and aren't quite sure which side to fall in with. It's a toughy.
No confusion, its straightforward. The secular and religious extremists are just full of it. Convinced of their own rectitude and holiness. It is pathetic and ignorant. There will be no tolerance, only domination and disaster if this insanity continues to grow.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by newpersonage)
That's what I mean, you are absolutely convinced that because you have the "Universal Values" any intrusion into other countries is justified. It was that attitude that started the war. In fact its that attitude that starts all wars.
It's not about universal values, or our values, it's about pragmatic ethics. As societies progress, so do their understandings of ethics. Pragmatic ethics isn't a Western thing, its something that appears in any developed society that allows for freedom of thought. Our ethics are not our culture, they're a natural conclusion to intellectual thought on ethics. To say that the liberal, enlightened values we have in the West are entirely our own is very fatuous and west-centric.

Many countries have not reached this stage. This is either because of poor education, or because it has been stifled by a theocratic system, or both. They have not managed to look at morality as something which is based on pragmatic ethics.
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