Was the Iraq war a complete failure? Watch

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Vienna
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#81
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#81
(Original post by pkonline)
So do you think pre-emptive strike is a good way to have world order? That a country can invade another because they think, may have an incling blah blah...? What a silly point. How in earth can we sit here condming others when we bend moral value here and there!
there is no black or white solutions. the line to be taken with Iran will be far more diplomatic. what moral value is being bent?

If you hear terrorists, a lot of them are anti-US because of their stance on Palestine. If you don't think that this is a reason then why are so many anti-US? Is it genetic?
no no. they are anti-US because what Palestine is. If the US changed its stance there feelings would not change. we are not talking about the majority of the world public, whos feeling can be dictated by policy change. these people are the minority who have one aim and that is to destroy Israel and America.

I made the point that what you were saying was racist and again you sit there saying it isn't (in your typical style). A lot on this bored have said you are but you just don't see it. How sad - feel very sory 4 u.
and your opinion is right by default? how amusing, in your typical style.
im not denying anything, i just want you to point out the racism.

When u saw Blair are you talking about when he addressed the nation in a presidential style before the bombing? He appeared on very few debate at all and looked as if he didn't listen. He felt as if it was soe kind of destiny or religous thing. There was no proper debate. When nearly 2 million people demonstrate rather than discrediting them the government should've at least listened.
what kind of debate? Tony Blair was constantly being grilled by the press. im convinced he was aware of the feeling among the public. just because he chose to have consistent debate, is not to say he did not listen.

The UK went to war on WMD alone. There aren't any which shows at the very least that the evidence was pretty poor. No WMD=No justification.
well, id challenge that. but people seem to have glossed over the real case for WMDs. you are limiting the argument to the mere material issue.
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Vienna
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#82
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#82
(Original post by pkonline)
No link between Iraq and Al Queda. Al Queda is a very extreme even for the likes of Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

leaked memo from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith to Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"4. According to a May 2003 debriefing of a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, Iraqi intelligence established a highly secretive relationship with Egyptian Islamic Jihad , and later with Al Qaeda. The first meeting in 1992 between the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and Al Qaeda was brokered by al-Turabi. Former IIS deputy director Faruq Hijazi and senior Al Qaeda leader [Ayman al] Zawahiri were at the meeting - the first of several between 1992 and 1995 in Sudan. Additional meetings between Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda were held in Pakistan. Members of Al Qaeda would sometimes visit Baghdad where they would meet the Iraqi intelligence chief in a safe house. The report claimed that Saddam insisted the relationship with Al Qaeda be kept secret. After 9/11, the source said Saddam made a personnel change in the IIS for fear the relationship would come under scrutiny from foreign probes"

. Reporting from a well placed source disclosed that bin Laden was receiving training on bomb making from the IIS's [Iraqi Intelligence Service] principal technical expert on making sophisticated explosives, Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed. Brigadier Salim was observed at bin Laden's farm in Khartoum in Sept.-Oct. 1995 and again in July 1996, in the company of the Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti.

9 . . . Bin Laden visited Doha, Qatar (17-19 Jan. 1996), staying at the residence of a member of the Qatari ruling family. He discussed the successful movement of explosives into Saudi Arabia, and operations targeted against U.S. and U.K. interests in Dammam, Dharan, and Khobar, using clandestine Al Qaeda cells in Saudi Arabia. Upon his return, bin Laden met with Hijazi and Turabi, among others

The Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti, met privately with bin Laden at his farm in Sudan in July 1996. Tikriti used an Iraqi delegation traveling to Khartoum to discuss bilateral cooperation as his "cover" for his own entry into Sudan to meet with bin Laden and Hassan al-Turabi. The Iraqi intelligence chief and two other IIS officers met at bin Laden¹s farm and discussed bin Laden¹s request for IIS technical assistance in: a) making letter and parcel bombs; b) making bombs which could be placed on aircraft and detonated by changes in barometric pressure; and c) making false passport [sic]. Bin Laden specifically requested that [Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed], Iraqi intelligence's premier explosives maker‹especially skilled in making car bombs‹remain with him in Sudan. The Iraqi intelligence chief instructed Salim to remain in Sudan with bin Laden as long as required.


15. A foreign government service reported that an Iraqi delegation, including at least two Iraqi intelligence officers formerly assigned to the Iraqi Embassy in Pakistan, met in late 1998 with bin Laden in Afghanistan.

16. According to CIA reporting, bin Laden and Zawahiri met with two Iraqi intelligence officers in Afghanistan in Dec. 1998.

17. . . . Iraq sent an intelligence officer to Afghanistan to seek closer ties to bin Laden and the Taliban in late 1998. The source reported that the Iraqi regime was trying to broaden its cooperation with Al Qaeda. Iraq was looking to recruit Muslim "elements" to sabotage U.S. and U.K. interests. After a senior Iraqi intelligence officer met with Taliban leader [Mullah] Omar, arrangements were made for a series of meetings between the Iraqi intelligence officer and bin Laden in Pakistan. The source noted Faruq Hijazi was in Afghanistan in late 1998.

18. . . . Faruq Hijazi went to Afghanistan in 1999 along with several other Iraqi officials to meet with bin Laden. The source claimed that Hijazi would have met bin Laden only at Saddam¹s explicit direction.


26. During a custodial interview, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi [a senior Al Qaeda operative] said he was told by an Al Qaeda associate that he was tasked to travel to Iraq (1998) to establish a relationship with Iraqi intelligence to obtain poisons and gases training. After the USS Cole bombing in 2000, two Al Qaeda operatives were sent to Iraq for CBW-related [Chemical and Biological Weapons] training beginning in Dec 2000. Iraqi intelligence was "encouraged" after the embassy and USS Cole bombings to provide this training
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pkonline
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#83
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#83
None of what you cut and pasted proves alink between the Iraqi government and Al Queda
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Vienna
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#84
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#84
(Original post by pkonline)
None of what you cut and pasted proves alink between the Iraqi government and Al Queda
and i was the one accused of 'blindly' supporting the US...how interesting.
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Saf!
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#85
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#85
(Original post by vienna95)
leaked memo from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith to Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"4. According to a May 2003 debriefing of a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, Iraqi intelligence established a highly secretive relationship with Egyptian Islamic Jihad , and later with Al Qaeda. The first meeting in 1992 between the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and Al Qaeda was brokered by al-Turabi. Former IIS deputy director Faruq Hijazi and senior Al Qaeda leader [Ayman al] Zawahiri were at the meeting - the first of several between 1992 and 1995 in Sudan. Additional meetings between Iraqi intelligence and Al Qaeda were held in Pakistan. Members of Al Qaeda would sometimes visit Baghdad where they would meet the Iraqi intelligence chief in a safe house. The report claimed that Saddam insisted the relationship with Al Qaeda be kept secret. After 9/11, the source said Saddam made a personnel change in the IIS for fear the relationship would come under scrutiny from foreign probes"

. Reporting from a well placed source disclosed that bin Laden was receiving training on bomb making from the IIS's [Iraqi Intelligence Service] principal technical expert on making sophisticated explosives, Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed. Brigadier Salim was observed at bin Laden's farm in Khartoum in Sept.-Oct. 1995 and again in July 1996, in the company of the Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti.

9 . . . Bin Laden visited Doha, Qatar (17-19 Jan. 1996), staying at the residence of a member of the Qatari ruling family. He discussed the successful movement of explosives into Saudi Arabia, and operations targeted against U.S. and U.K. interests in Dammam, Dharan, and Khobar, using clandestine Al Qaeda cells in Saudi Arabia. Upon his return, bin Laden met with Hijazi and Turabi, among others

The Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti, met privately with bin Laden at his farm in Sudan in July 1996. Tikriti used an Iraqi delegation traveling to Khartoum to discuss bilateral cooperation as his "cover" for his own entry into Sudan to meet with bin Laden and Hassan al-Turabi. The Iraqi intelligence chief and two other IIS officers met at bin Laden¹s farm and discussed bin Laden¹s request for IIS technical assistance in: a) making letter and parcel bombs; b) making bombs which could be placed on aircraft and detonated by changes in barometric pressure; and c) making false passport [sic]. Bin Laden specifically requested that [Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed], Iraqi intelligence's premier explosives maker‹especially skilled in making car bombs‹remain with him in Sudan. The Iraqi intelligence chief instructed Salim to remain in Sudan with bin Laden as long as required.


15. A foreign government service reported that an Iraqi delegation, including at least two Iraqi intelligence officers formerly assigned to the Iraqi Embassy in Pakistan, met in late 1998 with bin Laden in Afghanistan.

16. According to CIA reporting, bin Laden and Zawahiri met with two Iraqi intelligence officers in Afghanistan in Dec. 1998.

17. . . . Iraq sent an intelligence officer to Afghanistan to seek closer ties to bin Laden and the Taliban in late 1998. The source reported that the Iraqi regime was trying to broaden its cooperation with Al Qaeda. Iraq was looking to recruit Muslim "elements" to sabotage U.S. and U.K. interests. After a senior Iraqi intelligence officer met with Taliban leader [Mullah] Omar, arrangements were made for a series of meetings between the Iraqi intelligence officer and bin Laden in Pakistan. The source noted Faruq Hijazi was in Afghanistan in late 1998.

18. . . . Faruq Hijazi went to Afghanistan in 1999 along with several other Iraqi officials to meet with bin Laden. The source claimed that Hijazi would have met bin Laden only at Saddam¹s explicit direction.


26. During a custodial interview, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi [a senior Al Qaeda operative] said he was told by an Al Qaeda associate that he was tasked to travel to Iraq (1998) to establish a relationship with Iraqi intelligence to obtain poisons and gases training. After the USS Cole bombing in 2000, two Al Qaeda operatives were sent to Iraq for CBW-related [Chemical and Biological Weapons] training beginning in Dec 2000. Iraqi intelligence was "encouraged" after the embassy and USS Cole bombings to provide this training
hey! u'r all really gud at essay writin.... u ought 2 teach me!!!
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Vienna
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#86
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#86
Protests about the state visit to Britain of US President George W Bush have begun after a woman climbed the front gates of Buckingham Palace.The protester at Buckingham Palace Mrs Lindis Percy, a 61-year-old grandmother, is thought to have reached the top of the metal gate at around 4pm, unfurling a banner and the American flag, which she hung upside down. She was taken into police custody.

she could have been technically shot. i hope this foul behaviour is not an indication of things to come.
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hotnanoo
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#87
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(Original post by vienna95)
Protests about the state visit to Britain of US President George W Bush have begun after a woman climbed the front gates of Buckingham Palace.The protester at Buckingham Palace Mrs Lindis Percy, a 61-year-old grandmother, is thought to have reached the top of the metal gate at around 4pm, unfurling a banner and the American flag, which she hung upside down. She was taken into police custody.

she could have been technically shot. i hope this foul behaviour is not an indication of things to come.
I hope it is, not violet but enought to affect the visit of Bush the americans need to know how we feel on this subject and that we also did'nt want it
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Vienna
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#88
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(Original post by hotnanoo)
I hope it is, not violet but enought to affect the visit of Bush the americans need to know how we feel on this subject and that we also did'nt want it
i have nothing against that. but, and these are reports that are coming out, attempting to break into or damage Buckingham Palace or other state property is simply not on. i would be genuinely concerned for protesters that are planning to violate the security limits. the US SS will shoot first, ask questions later and quite rightly so.
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TELEPATHICTUBBY
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#89
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blair's a fool! now he says he didn't know the weapons of mass destruction that Robin Cook resigned over and could be launched within 45 minutes were little more than field weapons such as hand grenades! Now with everyone opposing him you would think he would look into it more!!! Grrh! all those innocent lives lost!
Blair's a fool!!! he wants to go down in history, as only the war time leaders are remembered...how can you be so selfish!! all those of you old enough to vote, please don't vote labour when election come about!!!
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Howard
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#90
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(Original post by TELEPATHICTUBBY)
blair's a fool! now he says he didn't know the weapons of mass destruction that Robin Cook resigned over and could be launched within 45 minutes were little more than field weapons such as hand grenades! Now with everyone opposing him you would think he would look into it more!!! Grrh! all those innocent lives lost!
Blair's a fool!!! he wants to go down in history, as only the war time leaders are remembered...how can you be so selfish!! all those of you old enough to vote, please don't vote labour when election come about!!!
I don't know if Blair want's to go down in history or is happy just going down on Bush's ****. What do you think? Anybody?
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pal_sch
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#91
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The war acheived most of its objectives and casualties were lower than predicted due to lack of major biological or chemical attacks. The offencive went well and finished quickly. The war was a success.

However, after the war, we are still stuck in Iraq for at least a few more years, suffering terrorist attacks. The power structure of the country is at a new low point. George Bush and Tony Blair have dropped in popularity overall and are in serious legal problems.

Did anyone notice how the new Inteligence inquest will be released after the US elections? Unfortinatly for Blair and Co. it is due before our elections.
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Howard
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#92
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(Original post by pal_sch)
The war acheived most of its objectives and casualties were lower than predicted due to lack of major biological or chemical attacks. The offencive went well and finished quickly. The war was a success.

However, after the war, we are still stuck in Iraq for at least a few more years, suffering terrorist attacks. The power structure of the country is at a new low point. George Bush and Tony Blair have dropped in popularity overall and are in serious legal problems.

Did anyone notice how the new Inteligence inquest will be released after the US elections? Unfortinatly for Blair and Co. it is due before our elections.
But, Blair's little enquiry will only explore "how intelligence was gathered" and not "how it was used by the politicians" which is what everyone really wants to know.
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pal_sch
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#93
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(Original post by Howard)
But, Blair's little enquiry will only explore "how intelligence was gathered" and not "how it was used by the politicians" which is what everyone really wants to know.
With any luck that will come straight after he loses the election.
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Howard
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#94
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(Original post by pal_sch)
With any luck that will come straight after he loses the election.
We live in hope.
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pal_sch
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#95
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(Original post by Howard)
We live in hope.
Hey, I'm just thinking of what George senior would feel like if his son lasted longer in the post than he did when he did everything else the same. Its up to places like this to get the message across
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NASAoverESA
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#96
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I for one feel that the war in Iraq was for the good.

Saddam Huessin is gone (at least from the grand scheme of things)

The Iraqi people (even as much as some might hate America), are much better of without the man who killed more Muslims than any other man in HISTORY. - Mind you, Islam has a long history.

Terrorists have been shown a force of power -- yeah sure, maybe the war encouraged many others to change there personal stance to hate the Western world, but the show of force certainly has most of them afraid of taking up arms aganist America. (its alot easier to talk the talk, than to walk the walk).

Also, America (me being American of course) has restored its image, because while under the Clinton Adminstration, Bill Clinton just turned away from the wars [which was starting to give America the image of 'soft'], but George Bush was willing to take to task of American history...that big bully, who has a soft spot, and watchs out for others that are close to him.
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pal_sch
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(Original post by NASAoverESA)
...Also, America (me being American of course) has restored its image, because while under the Clinton Adminstration, Bill Clinton just turned away from the wars [which was starting to give America the image of 'soft'], but George Bush was willing to take to task of American history...that big bully, who has a soft spot, and watchs out for others that are close to him.
True, Bush is about ten times the president Clinton was. Clinton was always in the shadow of Bush (in more ways than one) and never made it out. At least Bush has a pair and dares to react to threats and chalenges.
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JSM
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#98
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(Original post by pal_sch)
True, Bush is about ten times the president Clinton was. Clinton was always in the shadow of Bush (in more ways than one) and never made it out. At least Bush has a pair and dares to react to threats and chalenges.
lol- thats actually a resonable view although i would say about twice rather than ten times
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NASAoverESA
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#99
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what do you mean "in more ways than one"?
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pal_sch
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#100
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(Original post by JSM)
lol- thats actually a resonable view although i would say about twice rather than ten times
All depends on your point of view.
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