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Formula 1

Hi

my end goal as a result of going to university is to end up in a Formula 1 team, either as a race engineer, technical engineer or director or aerodynamicist, and possibly a few other roles.

the 1st question i have, is which type course will do this aim justice the most? Automotive engineering or Motorsport Engineering. by the sounds of the courses Motorsport engineering seems the obvious choice, but im under the impression from reading around that these tend to be lower quality courses.

secondly which univerity course is the best? i have identified Loughborough as the main Automotive course, followed by leeds. is this correct?

on the motorsport course side, i have Brookes Oxford, Coventry and Hertfordshire, though i have not put as much research into this side due to my above perception.

so to summarise all this into 1 question: which university course is most likely to get me into Formula 1?

thanks

dan

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Reply 1
dantheman123
Hi
so to summarise all this into 1 question: which university course is most likely to get me into Formula 1?

thanks

dan


Either aeronautical or mechanical engineering at Imperial College. I think you may also require a Phd now, as well.
Reply 2
Imperial have a good reputation for getting people into F1, particularly the aerodynamics side of F1 I am told. So that is definately a good choice for that field, but as the above poster said it is very competitive to the point that they may want a PhD - simply by virtue of the fact you need to be an expert and they can take whoever they like.

That said, I personally know people from Loughborough who are in F1 now or have taken placements with F1 teams - so it is certainly a viable option.
Loughborough get a hell of a lot of people into the automotive industry (the big car manufacturers especially) and the course is extremely good for that kind of thing.
I think Imperial probably wins on the F1 front on average, but don't think that it guarantees you a job above someone that went to Lboro.

So in short, either will give you a decent chance, with a leaning towards Imperial. Best to see which you like the more, they are situated in VERY different surroundings.



EDIT: Also worth pointing out at this point that people who take Mech/Aero/Auto often end applying for the same stuff. All courses are based on the same foundations and so doing one doesn't preclude you from doing the other at some point. Think of them all as "Mechanically Based Engineering".
Reply 3
thanks for the help. i find it interesting that you say that, because imperial hadnt even appeared on my list of possibilities and also the other type of course out there is mechanical engineering with automotive, where the the 1st 2 years are mechanical, 3rd is a sandwich option followed by automotive. which makes me wonder what the difference is with the 1st 2 years of an automotive course?

and are there any others that are a possibility for options, not necessarily because i wouldnt get the grades (i got 4 A's in jan modules) but because i believe i need to put 6 options down.

thanks

dan
Reply 4
dantheman123
thanks for the help. i find it interesting that you say that, because imperial hadnt even appeared on my list of possibilities and also the other type of course out there is mechanical engineering with automotive, where the the 1st 2 years are mechanical, 3rd is a sandwich option followed by automotive. which makes me wonder what the difference is with the 1st 2 years of an automotive course?

and are there any others that are a possibility for options, not necessarily because i wouldnt get the grades (i got 4 A's in jan modules) but because i believe i need to put 6 options down.

thanks

dan


Well, I am told reliably that Aero people from Imperial get into F1 aerodynamics quite often. Obviously this is not really of interest to you since it would mean studying something different for 3/4 years!

The way Loughborough run the Automotive Engineering course is that the first year is mostly just straight mechanical engineering, with 2 modules of Auto stuff, then second year there is still core modules but more Automotive stuff. Then third/fouth years are basically pure automotive modules (depending what options you choose).

So basically the Lboro Auto course means you will be doing Automotive work straight away, with the proportion of Automotive modules increasing each year. I presume at the other places that offer Mech Eng with Auto that they just offer less Auto modules in the first 2 years (or none at all).
The Auto course at Lboro is essentially Mechanical Engineering PLUS Automotive modules, slightly more work than straight mech. You'll cover all the same stuff as them.

Also worth mentioning just now that Loughborough push placement years quite heavily - they have some very good connections in industry and will basically be able to get you a placement (as I say some people get them in F1 but you'll have to compete for those).

Another place worth looking at is Bath (Mech Eng with Auto) as they are similar to Loughborough in that Engineering is their main focus and they encourage placement years. However their course means doing the first 2 years as pure mechanical, and no auto, only specialising in the 3rd/4th years.
Reply 5
ok thanks. at this point i still prefer the automotive course at loughborough, seeming as i dont want to take aeronautical and surely extra auto modules than the mechanical course cant be a bad thing?

though by the sounds of it the loughborough auto course lacks on the aerodynamics side a bit. which is why i want to ask about this:

https://www.soton.ac.uk/postgraduate/pgstudy/programmes/2007/ses/msc_race_car_aerodynamics.html

for an extra year of study i would come out with 2 degree's, 1 for automotive and 1 for aerodynamics. surely that would make me a more rounded employee for an F1 team? would i not be the full package?

thanks once again

dan
Reply 6
Southampton are very highly regarded in the engineering field.
For F1, go Imperial, Oxbridge or Southampton (in that order). Lboro is great, they also have an awesome aero dept, but I feel that the links and alumni at the above are more likely to increase your chances of getting in.

Here is a fantastic (if long) article on Grandprix.com by Peter Wright (a fairly well known F1 engineer), that talks about engineering at Imperial to get into F1...

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00348.html

The quote at the end by the legendary Harvey Postlethwaite sums it all up really (and it's important to note that he never attended Imperial):

Grandprix.com
As the late Dr Harvey Postelthwaite told a hopeful young engineer who was seeking a career in Formula1: "Don't bother with anywhere else, just go to the Imperial College."


Scuttle -> If you read the quotes by the various big name engineers in this article - some who hadn't even attended Imperial - Imperial has more than just a 'slight leaning' towards it for getting into F1.
Reply 8
MonteCristo
For F1, go Imperial, Oxbridge or Southampton (in that order). Lboro is great, they also have an awesome aero dept, but I feel that the links and alumni at the above are more likely to increase your chances of getting in.

Here is a fantastic (if long) article on Grandprix.com by Peter Wright (a fairly well known F1 engineer), that talks about engineering at Imperial to get into F1...

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00348.html

The quote at the end by the legendary Harvey Postlethwaite sums it all up really (and it's important to note that he never attended Imperial):



Scuttle -> If you read the quotes by the various big name engineers in this article - some who hadn't even attended Imperial - Imperial has more than just a 'slight leaning' towards it for getting into F1.



Sorry, I should have made it clear that I'm not expert in this regard! I was going to say that Imperial really was the best place for engineering in this country (specifically F1 stuff) but decided to hedge my bets because I didn't know for sure.

If he can get a place at Imperial, and wants to study in London then Imperial is the place for him. I just wanted to say that it wasn't impossible from other places, I have seen it done a fair few times, but I suspect far less than at Imperial/Cambridge.

As for Loughborough Aerodynamics, you definately take modules on general aerodynamics stuff (fluid mech covers some aspects) in first year, and then go on to do modules like 'Ground Vehicle Aerodynamics' in second year and beyond. To be honest if its aerodynamics you are after you need to take Aeronautical, but you will definately study it in some depth in the Auto course.

Really I think the advice is to put down Imperial, Cambridge/Oxford (I prefer cambridge but whatever!), Soton, Lboro, Bath and another that takes your fancy (Nottingham for example). Aim for them in that order as MonteCristo suggested (I bow to what I expect is vastly superior knowledge in this area) and visit them all. I quickly got a feel for what each university's main interest area was. Of course you also need to see what place you like the feel of.

At the end of the day though, F1 is a tough area to get into (because it's sexy) and even if you couldn't quite get your dream job (But go for it, really I mean it you CAN do it) you wouldn't end up unemployed with a degree from any of those places! Go engineering!
Reply 9
as much as my heart is set on loughborough (i dont know why it is. i havent visited the place and know very little about it :s) i have to ask what area of F1 would imperial get me into? and how would that compare to if i went to loughborough? for instance what would be the best uni to go to to be a race engineer or technical director? where would see me back at the factory?

after all theres not much point in going to imperial just to get into F1 if i then end up in a job i dont like.

thanks

dan
dantheman123
as much as my heart is set on loughborough (i dont know why it is. i havent visited the place and know very little about it :s) i have to ask what area of F1 would imperial get me into? and how would that compare to if i went to loughborough? for instance what would be the best uni to go to to be a race engineer or technical director? where would see me back at the factory?

after all theres not much point in going to imperial just to get into F1 if i then end up in a job i dont like.

thanks

dan


Nowhere is definitely going to get you into race engineering or make you a technical director. Formula 1 is a highly competitive environment to get into, you can forget about race engineering and becoming a technical director straight out of university, the current crop of technical directors and race engineers have years if not decades of engineering experience, not to mention being fantastic engineers in their own right. The youngest technical director is Sam Michael at Williams and he is in his early 30s.

Most likely the case will be that you will join the factory team of engineers, either in the design office or the test team, then you work yourself up the ranks to become race engineer, or strategist, and then move up from there.

With regards to what to study - mechnical and aeronautical engineering are your 2 best options, depends on if you want to go in the engine/mechanical side or aero side. Chemical engineers are hired by the fuel companies too to develop the race fuels etc, but those are hired in handfuls compared to the other roles.

I think you can go to Loughborough and you would enjoy it, it's a great campus and the engineering departments are fantastic, I actually live quite close to L'boro uni. Imperial would just stand you a better chance, because of the alumni, the industry links, the history and quality.
Reply 11
^^^ I agree with montecristo. F1 is very competitive and you can't get a top position just after completing your degree. You'll have to work your way up. If I were you, I would choose the course and uni that I would enjoy most. Also, doing a sandwich course with 1yr placement may be a good idea. One course that I think would be good for race engieering/strategy would be Mathematics with Engineering at Nottingham. If it has some statistics modules, it would help with the strategy part...but thats my opinion. Hope I've made some sort of sense lol
Reply 12
MonteCristo
Nowhere is definitely going to get you into race engineering or make you a technical director. Formula 1 is a highly competitive environment to get into, you can forget about race engineering and becoming a technical director straight out of university, the current crop of technical directors and race engineers have years if not decades of engineering experience, not to mention being fantastic engineers in their own right. The youngest technical director is Sam Michael at Williams and he is in his early 30s.

Most likely the case will be that you will join the factory team of engineers, either in the design office or the test team, then you work yourself up the ranks to become race engineer, or strategist, and then move up from there.

With regards to what to study - mechnical and aeronautical engineering are your 2 best options, depends on if you want to go in the engine/mechanical side or aero side. Chemical engineers are hired by the fuel companies too to develop the race fuels etc, but those are hired in handfuls compared to the other roles.

I think you can go to Loughborough and you would enjoy it, it's a great campus and the engineering departments are fantastic, I actually live quite close to L'boro uni. Imperial would just stand you a better chance, because of the alumni, the industry links, the history and quality.


I will conceed that Imperial is better (because it really is) as long as we also admit that it does not guarantee you anything any more than going to Bath/Lboro/Notts guarantees that you wont get a job in F1, if you see what I mean?

The roles I know people have gone into tend to be things like "Vehicle Dynamacist" or just "Graduate Engineer" so I doubt the positions are particularly high, but they are definatley technical.

Loughborough's strength lies in the major car manufacturers more than in F1, but they still suceed in getting people in every year.

Again, go and see them all!
I don't claim to be an expert on this but as far as I know, Oxford Brookes university is also widely known among the F1 teams and graduates from Automotive Engineering course do get jobs in teams like BMW, Renault, etc.

In fact, there was a news some weeks back where graduates from Spain had the opportunity to get scholarship to Oxford Brookes for their post-graduate course related to motorsports. The scholarship was named (and perhaps endorsed by) after Fernando Alonso. I also saw in an interview where the technical director of a F1 team spoke about opportunities for Oxford Brookes graduates in F1.

Oxford Brookes also happen to be the best Formula Student team in UK - a competition for young engineers to design and build a race car. I think the location of Oxford Brookes university and the experience in motorsports that some of the teaching staff at Brookes brings, makes the university a reputed institution amongst F1 teams.
Reply 14
Justintabib
I don't claim to be an expert on this but as far as I know, Oxford Brookes university is also widely known among the F1 teams and graduates from Automotive Engineering course do get jobs in teams like BMW, Renault, etc.

In fact, there was a news some weeks back where graduates from Spain had the opportunity to get scholarship to Oxford Brookes for their post-graduate course related to motorsports. The scholarship was named (and perhaps endorsed by) after Fernando Alonso. I also saw in an interview where the technical director of a F1 team spoke about opportunities for Oxford Brookes graduates in F1.

Oxford Brookes also happen to be the best Formula Student team in UK - a competition for young engineers to design and build a race car. I think the location of Oxford Brookes university and the experience in motorsports that some of the teaching staff at Brookes brings, makes the university a reputed institution amongst F1 teams.



I can well beleive this is true. Oxford is an F1 hotspot.

This goes to show that good engineering departments are good engineering departments regardless of where they are attached. Leave aside the fact that Brookes is actually a good university, and most importantly constantly improving itself, it still wouldn't be listed by the prestige gimps in their "top 10 universities that will make your middle class parents boast to their colleague's". Never the less it still does well in engineering and is rightly respected by the people who matter, the employers.

I mention this because it transfers into a lot of other threads on this forum.
To OP, just to assure you that you do have a chance to get to the top in F1 teams if you choose Loughborough uni. The current executive director of engineering for McLaren F1, Neil Oatley, graduated from Lufbro in Automotive engineering in the 1970s. Bit of an inspiration. :wink:
Reply 16
If you were to get a first say in a degree of mech eng, would there still be an emphasis on what your A2 results were? Would top teams still be looking for 4A's or would that be irrelevant as you are not going straight into a top job in F1 and most of it would be due to experience in the industry. The alternative grades would be something like ABBB or higher for example
Reply 17
Justintabib


In fact, there was a news some weeks back where graduates from Spain had the opportunity to get scholarship to Oxford Brookes for their post-graduate course related to motorsports. The scholarship was named (and perhaps endorsed by) after Fernando Alonso.


i would put that down to the fact that Alonso actually lives in Oxford, so anything that local to do with F1 is hardly out of his way.

the problem with Oxford Brookes is as i understand it the Oxbridge line (as i understand it) is basically drawn at 6 A*, rest A's. whilst there are some exceptions that seems to be the line. unfortunately i got 4 A* 5A and a B, which is below that line. would i stand a chance or is it completely out the question?

oh and on a different note if anyone knows about getting sponsorship can you check this one out: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=375198 as it hasnt gotten any replies (wrong sub forum maybe?).

thanks

dan
Scuttle
I will conceed that Imperial is better (because it really is) as long as we also admit that it does not guarantee you anything any more than going to Bath/Lboro/Notts guarantees that you wont get a job in F1, if you see what I mean?

The roles I know people have gone into tend to be things like "Vehicle Dynamacist" or just "Graduate Engineer" so I doubt the positions are particularly high, but they are definatley technical.

Loughborough's strength lies in the major car manufacturers more than in F1, but they still suceed in getting people in every year.

Again, go and see them all!


Of course not, there are no guarantees anywhere. It's just the nature of the industry.

I don't claim to be an expert on this but as far as I know, Oxford Brookes university is also widely known among the F1 teams and graduates from Automotive Engineering course do get jobs in teams like BMW, Renault, etc.

In fact, there was a news some weeks back where graduates from Spain had the opportunity to get scholarship to Oxford Brookes for their post-graduate course related to motorsports. The scholarship was named (and perhaps endorsed by) after Fernando Alonso. I also saw in an interview where the technical director of a F1 team spoke about opportunities for Oxford Brookes graduates in F1.

Oxford Brookes also happen to be the best Formula Student team in UK - a competition for young engineers to design and build a race car. I think the location of Oxford Brookes university and the experience in motorsports that some of the teaching staff at Brookes brings, makes the university a reputed institution amongst F1 teams.


This post is true. I once spoke to a senior engineer from Renault who said they only reserve summer internships for Oxford Brookes students because Brookes lets them have a large say in the syllabus of the course.
Reply 19
dantheman123
i would put that down to the fact that Alonso actually lives in Oxford, so anything that local to do with F1 is hardly out of his way.

the problem with Oxford Brookes is as i understand it the Oxbridge line (as i understand it) is basically drawn at 6 A*, rest A's. whilst there are some exceptions that seems to be the line. unfortunately i got 4 A* 5A and a B, which is below that line. would i stand a chance or is it completely out the question?

oh and on a different note if anyone knows about getting sponsorship can you check this one out: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=375198 as it hasnt gotten any replies (wrong sub forum maybe?).

thanks

dan


arent you confusing Oxford Uni and Oxford Brookes Uni?