This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- Becoming a barrister as a non-law student?
- Gaining legal experience pre-PGDL
- What is it like to be a medical negligence barrister
- Dual Degree Law programme with Columbia (LLB/JD)
- Getting a first average in law
- Paris 2024 Olympics: Gymnastics and Trampolining
- Transitioning from Software Engineering to the Bar via GDL
- Average salary of a commercial barrister
- Bar Training Course Dilemma?
- Number crunching: excess of aspirant barristers over places available.
- How long to become a barrister
- Applying for pupillage - should I wait?
- Advice from people who became Barristers
- Eligibility criteria for Bar Course (BVS, BPC, BPTC) in UK
- Law Uni Magic Circle
- Part time Jobs in Birmingham
- Hi im completing law degree next year 2025
- Does the university affect chances of becoming a barrister?
- Applying for pupillage in third year?
- Admission for bar at law in uk
How competitive is the bar?
I really reheeeeallly (Dr. Cox impression) want to do the BVC and become a barrister but ive been told that it will be so hard getting a start overall and pupillage is a whole different story.
what re your opinions (I reheeeeeally want to be a Barrister)
what re your opinions (I reheeeeeally want to be a Barrister)
Scroll to see replies
I've recently decided, having been sat on the fence for ages about whether to be a barrister or a solicitor, that I'm gonna do the BVC. I know it's what I want to do deep down. I was always put off by the competition, and it's easy to let it dishearten you, but at the end of the day I think if you want it enough, you just need to have a **** it attitude and just take the risk.
Are you at uni yet? It's not that competitive to get onto the BVC, that's not the problem, it's getting the pupillage, which is horrid but if you wana do it...then try.
My philosophy is that I need to do the bvc, because no matter what happens, at least I won't look back with regret and wish I had tried to make it as a barrister.
Are you at uni yet? It's not that competitive to get onto the BVC, that's not the problem, it's getting the pupillage, which is horrid but if you wana do it...then try.
My philosophy is that I need to do the bvc, because no matter what happens, at least I won't look back with regret and wish I had tried to make it as a barrister.
I laud the above attitude.
The Bar is competitive, but it is by no means impossible. Outside of London is probably infinitely easier than within. It's impossible to quantify how hard it is though, but just take it that loads and loads of really good people struggle intensely to get pupillage! And even after that, you might struggle to gain tenency!
The Bar is competitive, but it is by no means impossible. Outside of London is probably infinitely easier than within. It's impossible to quantify how hard it is though, but just take it that loads and loads of really good people struggle intensely to get pupillage! And even after that, you might struggle to gain tenency!
Go for it.
The short answer is "very".
The longer answer is that it depends what area of law you are interested in. Commercial/chancery sets tend to have stronger candidates on paper: you will likely need at Oxbridge First at least to have a good chance at the top sets in this area, although there are limited exceptions. Even a good Oxbridge 2:1 or First from a non-Oxbridge institution may not even get an interview.
Conversely, mixed common law and crime sets will generally require the same sort of academic credentials as most other graduate jobs (2:1 from good Uni) but are likely to be more competitive on, for example, extra-curriculars and interview. Since candidates for these sets tend to be less self-selecting, and these types of sets tend to be able to afford to fund fewer pupils, the candidate : place ratio might be even higher than the commercial sets. A ratio of 200 : 1 is not uncommon.
Something to remember is that only about 25% of BVC graduates get pupillage (although of course some will practise in other jurisdictions), and most BVC graduates will have at least a 2:1 from a good Uni.
The longer answer is that it depends what area of law you are interested in. Commercial/chancery sets tend to have stronger candidates on paper: you will likely need at Oxbridge First at least to have a good chance at the top sets in this area, although there are limited exceptions. Even a good Oxbridge 2:1 or First from a non-Oxbridge institution may not even get an interview.
Conversely, mixed common law and crime sets will generally require the same sort of academic credentials as most other graduate jobs (2:1 from good Uni) but are likely to be more competitive on, for example, extra-curriculars and interview. Since candidates for these sets tend to be less self-selecting, and these types of sets tend to be able to afford to fund fewer pupils, the candidate : place ratio might be even higher than the commercial sets. A ratio of 200 : 1 is not uncommon.
Something to remember is that only about 25% of BVC graduates get pupillage (although of course some will practise in other jurisdictions), and most BVC graduates will have at least a 2:1 from a good Uni.
Cato
The short answer is "very".
The longer answer is that it depends what area of law you are interested in. Commercial/chancery sets tend to have stronger candidates on paper: you will likely need at Oxbridge First at least to have a good chance at the top sets in this area, although there are limited exceptions. Even a good Oxbridge 2:1 or First from a non-Oxbridge institution may not even get an interview.
The longer answer is that it depends what area of law you are interested in. Commercial/chancery sets tend to have stronger candidates on paper: you will likely need at Oxbridge First at least to have a good chance at the top sets in this area, although there are limited exceptions. Even a good Oxbridge 2:1 or First from a non-Oxbridge institution may not even get an interview.
The question is, what determines your ability to win a case, yourself, or your set?
Probably your senior for the first multiple years, before you're set loose with anything half interesting on your own.
Lewisy-boy
Outside of London is probably infinitely easier than within
Probably?! - If you don't know (and have absolutely no experience of applying), don't reply with an unsubstantiated guess!
It is actually much harder outside London as they get more applicants, and offer less pupillages!! For example I applied to a Manchester Chambers which had over 900 applicants for 2 pupillages - first round they had 30 people at an assessment day, second round interview was for 8.
Compare with London (equally as prestigious sets of chambers) - 500 people, 80 interviewed first round, 25 second - 4 pupillages on offer!
Therefore it is clearly much harder to get an interview, and therefore a pupillage, outside London - Know your facts!
I'm sorry but you seem to offer advice on every topic on this board without necessarily having any experience - you've not even finished your degree and seemingly (apologies if I'm incorrect) want to be a solicitor so why advise people on the Bar when you've not done/or applied for the BVC?! Leave it to those of us, such as Julia Whittaker and myself, who know what we're talking about to advise people - I wouldn't dream of advising people on where to do the LPC as I haven't got a clue!
RR
I've recently decided, having been sat on the fence for ages about whether to be a barrister or a solicitor, that I'm gonna do the BVC. I know it's what I want to do deep down. I was always put off by the competition, and it's easy to let it dishearten you, but at the end of the day I think if you want it enough, you just need to have a **** it attitude and just take the risk.
Are you at uni yet? It's not that competitive to get onto the BVC, that's not the problem, it's getting the pupillage, which is horrid but if you wana do it...then try.
My philosophy is that I need to do the bvc, because no matter what happens, at least I won't look back with regret and wish I had tried to make it as a barrister.
Are you at uni yet? It's not that competitive to get onto the BVC, that's not the problem, it's getting the pupillage, which is horrid but if you wana do it...then try.
My philosophy is that I need to do the bvc, because no matter what happens, at least I won't look back with regret and wish I had tried to make it as a barrister.
ive got the exact same attitude, im just going to keep trying and trying. something will have to give right.
dianebbl
Probably?! - If you don't know (and have absolutely no experience of applying), don't reply with an unsubstantiated guess!
It is actually much harder outside London as they get more applicants, and offer less pupillages!! For example I applied to a Machester Chambers which had over 900 applicants for 2 pupillages - first round they had 30 people at an assessment day, second round interview was for 8.
Compare with London (equally as prestigious sets of chambers) - 500 people, 80 interviewed first round, 25 second - 4 pupillages on offer!
Therefore it is clearly much harder to get an interview, and therefore a pupillage, outside London - Know your facts!
I'm sorry but you seem to offer advice on every topic on this board without necessarily having any experience - you've not even finished your degree and seemingly (apologies if I'm incorrect) want to be a solicitor so why advise people on the Bar when you've not done/or applied for the BVC?! Leave it to those of us, such as Julia Whittaker and myself, who know what we're talking about to advise people - I wouldn't dream of advising people on where to do the LPC as I haven't got a clue!
It is actually much harder outside London as they get more applicants, and offer less pupillages!! For example I applied to a Machester Chambers which had over 900 applicants for 2 pupillages - first round they had 30 people at an assessment day, second round interview was for 8.
Compare with London (equally as prestigious sets of chambers) - 500 people, 80 interviewed first round, 25 second - 4 pupillages on offer!
Therefore it is clearly much harder to get an interview, and therefore a pupillage, outside London - Know your facts!
I'm sorry but you seem to offer advice on every topic on this board without necessarily having any experience - you've not even finished your degree and seemingly (apologies if I'm incorrect) want to be a solicitor so why advise people on the Bar when you've not done/or applied for the BVC?! Leave it to those of us, such as Julia Whittaker and myself, who know what we're talking about to advise people - I wouldn't dream of advising people on where to do the LPC as I haven't got a clue!
That sounds really really competitive man and a little scary ive got to say, but surely it must be easier if you apply at the less prestigous chambers and just slowly build your way up? have you had any luck getting your pupillage?
moh_oh_sssmallnessss
That sounds really really competitive man and a little scary ive got to say, but surely it must be easier if you apply at the less prestigous chambers and just slowly build your way up?
Sorry doesn't work like that! Once/If you are lucky enough to get tenancy you stay there, usually for life!!
And bearing in mind those figures are from mixed/criminal sets, although excellent ones, not the top chancery sets. I have found the less prestigious ones harder to get an interview at, they've turned me down yet top criminal sets have second interviewed me! So unfortunately that theory doesn't work either -probably because they don't have the facilities to interview so many.
On average a chambers gets 400-700 applicants for 1-2 pupillages. The figures quoted for interview for London/Non-London are usual, although i have heard of 2-6 second round for non-London.
It is worth it, and if you're really sure that this is what you want to do, and either have a trust fund, are prepared to get into serious debt (£20k for the BVC alone in not unusual, with student loans on top) or put off the BVC and work to pay for it then do it! It is not something to go into lightly, to get an interview-worthy CV requires serious dedication (not just the usual 2:1 from a good uni, but extra-curricular etc).
You seem to have a good attitude about it - keep trying, build up your CV and don't expect to get a pupillage straight off is the best advice. If you want to do it, you'll always wonder if you don't.
moh_oh_sssmallnessss
have you had any luck getting your pupillage?
I've only been applying for 10 months or so (by choice, wanted a year out after the BVC to do an LLM which I've just finished) - so 2 OLPAS rounds (summer and autumn) and a few non-OLPAS applications (I'm picky, have only applied to London criminal sets, and mixed sets in Newcastle & manchester).
Of the 19 applications I have made, I have had 8 first round and 2 second round interviews (one of which I'm waiting for - fingers crossed!), which is more than some but fewer than others (who still don't have pupillage) - although it's the best rate of return I know of. The vast majority of people who did the BVC with me have had no interviews though.
It doesn't always take so many though, and I think I've got more interviews as I was already doing the BVC so could put those predictions down and had mooting/advocacy competitions on my CV.
At a recent mini-pupillage I was told that, since I'd had so many, I would definitely get a pupillage at some stage and it was just a matter of time - but I don't know how true this is - i'll let you know!
OK sorry I was so wrong about outside of London, those figures are horrendous. However, I've heard people who do know about the Bar say that it's easier outside of London before, both on here and in the 'real world'; lesson = don't believe all you hear! Also, and again I can't be 100% certain, but don't you think that although there are more applicants it could be similar to applying to uni: oxbridge get fewer applicants, but they are of the highest calibre, in much the same way that London sets probably get fewer but the best applications... I can't be far wrong in that assertion, it just makes sense.
My point is simpe: more applications does not necessarily mean harder.
Good luck all, stick at it and something good should eventually come of it!
My point is simpe: more applications does not necessarily mean harder.
Good luck all, stick at it and something good should eventually come of it!
Why is London necessarily better?!
Again, and this only applies to criminal/mixed practice not commercial/chancery, but barristers tend to get much more experience much quicker out of London than in London, particularly trial experience, and so their careers tend to progress quicker than non-Londoners who can spend years doing basic stuff. Plus the pay is actually often better out of London (especially when one takes into account ridiculous travel costs & living costs!)
And most importantly of all, if you are taken on as a pupil out of London usually that is because they want to keep you and help you develop, and unless you completely mess it up they take you on as a tenant - in London, having got that pupillage, only 1 of the 4 will be taken on (for info on this read the fabulous blog by Baby Barista - babybarista.blogspot.com) - most applicants know this so, if there were no other factors e.g. friends/family etc. would probably choose a non-London set!
"good" people apply everywhere, not just London so no, I wouldn't say that better applicants go to London therefore it is easier to get one outside of it, quite the contrary I know Oxbridge graduates who refuse(d) to apply to London sets.
So sorry, you're wrong - when all the applicants have similar CVs (and often duplicate as we can apply to more than one) it seems logical that more applicants DOES mean harder. Those figures are based on what chambers have told me during/after interviews so are accurate and not guesses, as other figures on this board might be!
Again, and this only applies to criminal/mixed practice not commercial/chancery, but barristers tend to get much more experience much quicker out of London than in London, particularly trial experience, and so their careers tend to progress quicker than non-Londoners who can spend years doing basic stuff. Plus the pay is actually often better out of London (especially when one takes into account ridiculous travel costs & living costs!)
And most importantly of all, if you are taken on as a pupil out of London usually that is because they want to keep you and help you develop, and unless you completely mess it up they take you on as a tenant - in London, having got that pupillage, only 1 of the 4 will be taken on (for info on this read the fabulous blog by Baby Barista - babybarista.blogspot.com) - most applicants know this so, if there were no other factors e.g. friends/family etc. would probably choose a non-London set!
"good" people apply everywhere, not just London so no, I wouldn't say that better applicants go to London therefore it is easier to get one outside of it, quite the contrary I know Oxbridge graduates who refuse(d) to apply to London sets.
So sorry, you're wrong - when all the applicants have similar CVs (and often duplicate as we can apply to more than one) it seems logical that more applicants DOES mean harder. Those figures are based on what chambers have told me during/after interviews so are accurate and not guesses, as other figures on this board might be!
dianebbl
Why is London necessarily better?!
Again, and this only applies to criminal/mixed practice not commercial/chancery, but barristers tend to get much more experience much quicker out of London than in London, particularly trial experience, and so their careers tend to progress quicker than non-Londoners who can spend years doing basic stuff. Plus the pay is actually often better out of London (especially when one takes into account ridiculous travel costs & living costs!)
And most importantly of all, if you are taken on as a pupil out of London usually that is because they want to keep you and help you develop, and unless you completely mess it up they take you on as a tenant - in London, having got that pupillage, only 1 of the 4 will be taken on (for info on this read the fabulous blog by Baby Barista - babybarista.blogspot.com) - most applicants know this so, if there were no other factors e.g. friends/family etc. would probably choose a non-London set!
"good" people apply everywhere, not just London so no, I wouldn't say that better applicants go to London therefore it is easier to get one outside of it, quite the contrary I know Oxbridge graduates who refuse(d) to apply to London sets.
So sorry, you're wrong - when all the applicants have similar CVs (and often duplicate as we can apply to more than one) it seems logical that more applicants DOES mean harder. Those figures are based on what chambers have told me during/after interviews so are accurate and not guesses, as other figures on this board might be!
Again, and this only applies to criminal/mixed practice not commercial/chancery, but barristers tend to get much more experience much quicker out of London than in London, particularly trial experience, and so their careers tend to progress quicker than non-Londoners who can spend years doing basic stuff. Plus the pay is actually often better out of London (especially when one takes into account ridiculous travel costs & living costs!)
And most importantly of all, if you are taken on as a pupil out of London usually that is because they want to keep you and help you develop, and unless you completely mess it up they take you on as a tenant - in London, having got that pupillage, only 1 of the 4 will be taken on (for info on this read the fabulous blog by Baby Barista - babybarista.blogspot.com) - most applicants know this so, if there were no other factors e.g. friends/family etc. would probably choose a non-London set!
"good" people apply everywhere, not just London so no, I wouldn't say that better applicants go to London therefore it is easier to get one outside of it, quite the contrary I know Oxbridge graduates who refuse(d) to apply to London sets.
So sorry, you're wrong - when all the applicants have similar CVs (and often duplicate as we can apply to more than one) it seems logical that more applicants DOES mean harder. Those figures are based on what chambers have told me during/after interviews so are accurate and not guesses, as other figures on this board might be!
I suppose you can give yourself a better chance by applying all over the UK and even Europe.
Not an option unfortunately - the BVC is only for the admittants to the Bar of England & Wales and so is not valid for anywhere outside this. Even Scottish/NI law and Bar have completely different systems and required qualifications.
The BVC is valid in Australia (or at least it is easier to work there than most other places) and some people go out there.
And forget the USA without the NY or California Bar exam (an extra £4k).
The BVC is valid in Australia (or at least it is easier to work there than most other places) and some people go out there.
And forget the USA without the NY or California Bar exam (an extra £4k).
RR - I think you are definitely doing the right thing. My dad was trying to convince me to become a MC solicitor as it is more secure etc but my view was that if I went for the Bar I had a chance of failing to achieve what I wanted; but if I didn't I was certain to fail! Just as long as you are going in with your eyes open. It's odd, it seems that a lot of people with a relatively good chance of getting in don't even go for the BVC because of the statistics, yet a lot of people with a poor chance are fairly sure they'll be successful in my class !
Diane & Lewis, I don't think you can say London is or isn't harder to get into - certain non-London chambers, such as No. 5 Chambers, are known to be heavily oversubscribed but I have heard that it is easier to get into SOME chambers in other cities. For example the chambers 1 Crown Office Row is based in London with an annexe in Brighton and if you look them up you will see that the CVs of those in London are stronger than those in Brighton which would suggest that it is more difficult to get into.
Waji - no law degree puts you out of the running but you really need to be aiming for a first, you have to remember the competition out there, a candidate with a 2.1 from Kent will be hard pressed to outdo all of the others going for a pupillage in a particular set without a really excellent CV.
Diane & Lewis, I don't think you can say London is or isn't harder to get into - certain non-London chambers, such as No. 5 Chambers, are known to be heavily oversubscribed but I have heard that it is easier to get into SOME chambers in other cities. For example the chambers 1 Crown Office Row is based in London with an annexe in Brighton and if you look them up you will see that the CVs of those in London are stronger than those in Brighton which would suggest that it is more difficult to get into.
Waji - no law degree puts you out of the running but you really need to be aiming for a first, you have to remember the competition out there, a candidate with a 2.1 from Kent will be hard pressed to outdo all of the others going for a pupillage in a particular set without a really excellent CV.
Nana_Julia
RR - I think you are definitely doing the right thing. My dad was trying to convince me to become a MC solicitor as it is more secure etc but my view was that if I went for the Bar I had a chance of failing to achieve what I wanted; but if I didn't I was certain to fail! Just as long as you are going in with your eyes open. It's odd, it seems that a lot of people with a relatively good chance of getting in don't even go for the BVC because of the statistics, yet a lot of people with a poor chance are fairly sure they'll be successful in my class !
Diane & Lewis, I don't think you can say London is or isn't harder to get into - certain non-London chambers, such as No. 5 Chambers, are known to be heavily oversubscribed but I have heard that it is easier to get into SOME chambers in other cities. For example the chambers 1 Crown Office Row is based in London with an annexe in Brighton and if you look them up you will see that the CVs of those in London are stronger than those in Brighton which would suggest that it is more difficult to get into.
Waji - no law degree puts you out of the running but you really need to be aiming for a first, you have to remember the competition out there, a candidate with a 2.1 from Kent will be hard pressed to outdo all of the others going for a pupillage in a particular set without a really excellent CV.
Diane & Lewis, I don't think you can say London is or isn't harder to get into - certain non-London chambers, such as No. 5 Chambers, are known to be heavily oversubscribed but I have heard that it is easier to get into SOME chambers in other cities. For example the chambers 1 Crown Office Row is based in London with an annexe in Brighton and if you look them up you will see that the CVs of those in London are stronger than those in Brighton which would suggest that it is more difficult to get into.
Waji - no law degree puts you out of the running but you really need to be aiming for a first, you have to remember the competition out there, a candidate with a 2.1 from Kent will be hard pressed to outdo all of the others going for a pupillage in a particular set without a really excellent CV.
im not hard working enough for a first, i can do it but i know i wont since i get a serious burnout if i work too much and then it just becomes stressing at which point you start hating your course.
waji
im not hard working enough for a first, i can do it but i know i wont since i get a serious burnout if i work too much and then it just becomes stressing at which point you start hating your course.
Do you think that, if you're unable to study hard because it gives you "serious burn-out", you'll be able to cope with the high-levels of stress that comes with being a solicitor or barrister?
Related discussions
- Becoming a barrister as a non-law student?
- Gaining legal experience pre-PGDL
- What is it like to be a medical negligence barrister
- Dual Degree Law programme with Columbia (LLB/JD)
- Getting a first average in law
- Paris 2024 Olympics: Gymnastics and Trampolining
- Transitioning from Software Engineering to the Bar via GDL
- Average salary of a commercial barrister
- Bar Training Course Dilemma?
- Number crunching: excess of aspirant barristers over places available.
- How long to become a barrister
- Applying for pupillage - should I wait?
- Advice from people who became Barristers
- Eligibility criteria for Bar Course (BVS, BPC, BPTC) in UK
- Law Uni Magic Circle
- Part time Jobs in Birmingham
- Hi im completing law degree next year 2025
- Does the university affect chances of becoming a barrister?
- Applying for pupillage in third year?
- Admission for bar at law in uk
Latest
Trending
Last reply 2 hours ago
CPS Pupillage/Legal Trainee Scheme (Oct 2026) Start!Last reply 1 month ago
Should I give up on my Solicitor Training Contract Search in favour of Teaching?Last reply 1 month ago
Will a non-law degree put me at a disadvantage when becoming a barrister?
