KajWan
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Hey guys,

I'm wondering what you think concerning the ranking of consulting firms in the tier 2 space. Which one is number 4 after MBB?

My perception is the following:

Tier 1: McKinsey > BCG > Bain
Tier 2: Berger >= Strategy& >= Oliver Wyman > AT Kearney > LEK >= OC&C


Thanks for your opinions.

Best,
Kajetan
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MattRaupa
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Guess it's either RB or Strategy&, but this is also dependent on the region you look at. RB is pretty strong in Europe, but has almost no position in the Americas region, especially not in the US. Strategy& is more balanced they are strong in both regions and also have a good placement in Asia and the Middle East.

It's also dependent on the industries you look at, e.g. for PE LEK is ahead of the other two, but overall weaker.

If you receive an offer at S& or RB you're not making a mistake accepting either one.
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Princepieman
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(Original post by KajWan)
Hey guys,

I'm wondering what you think concerning the ranking of consulting firms in the tier 2 space. Which one is number 4 after MBB?

My perception is the following:

Tier 1: McKinsey > BCG > Bain
Tier 2: Berger >= Strategy& >= Oliver Wyman > AT Kearney > LEK >= OC&C


Thanks for your opinions.

Best,
Kajetan
Your ranking is a bit off. The tier 2s don't have any significant differences between them, in that they're all very strong.

I'd personally peg OW (especially their financial services group) much higher than the others, but it's all relative. Some people have been saying that Strat& have lost their Booz lustre post-acquisition, but that's anecdotal.

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welcometoib
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(Original post by KajWan)
Hey guys,

I'm wondering what you think concerning the ranking of consulting firms in the tier 2 space. Which one is number 4 after MBB?

My perception is the following:

Tier 1: McKinsey > BCG > Bain
Tier 2: Berger >= Strategy& >= Oliver Wyman > AT Kearney > LEK >= OC&C


Thanks for your opinions.

Best,
Kajetan
ill put OW at their own little higer level compared to the other, id put monitor there too, and at kearney a peg lower, i dont think of them as the same internationally as the others youve mentioned.
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MattRaupa
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OW is pretty strong in the financial services that's true, but else it's rather weak. In the UK they are more prestigious than in Germany or France where they are tier 2/3 since their general practice is almost non-existent and financial services are less important in the continental markets.

Guess Strategy& still has a good placement, applied at several consulting firms ins Europe and S& paid the most and that by far. No idea how the situation is in the Uk though. Agree that AT Kearney is probably a tier below and on-par with Monitor.

Tier 1: McK > BCG > Bain
Tier 2: Roland Berger = Strategy& >= OW > L.E.K
Tier 2/3: ATK, Monitor Deloitte
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Princepieman
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(Original post by MattRaupa)
OW is pretty strong in the financial services that's true, but else it's rather weak. In the UK they are more prestigious than in Germany or France where they are tier 2/3 since their general practice is almost non-existent and financial services are less important in the continental markets.

Guess Strategy& still has a good placement, applied at several consulting firms ins Europe and S& paid the most and that by far. No idea how the situation is in the Uk though. Agree that AT Kearney is probably a tier below and on-par with Monitor.

Tier 1: McK > BCG > Bain
Tier 2: Roland Berger = Strategy& >= OW > L.E.K
Tier 2/3: ATK, Monitor Deloitte
Out of interest, why do you think Monitor Deloitte is so much lower in the UK/EU relative to their position in the US?

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MattRaupa
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As I mentioned I applied to several consulting firms and received several offers, Deloitte is only paying €60k without any bonus, in contrast Strategy& is paying €83k + 15-20k bonus + perks, other companies like Berger pay €65k + perks + bonus of 15-20k; haven't applied to OW but they should be in the same range (I know that undergraduates start with 55k + bonus). ATK is paying a little less than Berger, at least their base is slightly less. The pay gap alone would be sufficient to derive that Deloitte should have problems of attracting top talent when others pay 20-40k more p.a. Furthermore, in France and Germany nobody wants to work there - at least not if you're MBB caliber but didn't make it in the first place, then other alternatives like Strategy&, Berger, Wyman or AT Kearney are much more interesting.

In Germany their team is only 150 people strong which is quite small, heard about the same size for France. Former Deloitte S&O employees also told me that Deloitte is not happy with its brand positioning at the moment and tries to rebrand the Monitor Group more. I mean it makes sense it was foreseeable that the fees Deloitte would be able to command are also dependent on the prestige and success of the firm. Deloitte is perceived as a big4 company but not necessarily as a management consulting firm. In the US they are much stronger that's true but elsewhere the brand name doesn't carry a lot.
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Princepieman
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(Original post by MattRaupa)
As I mentioned I applied to several consulting firms and received several offers, Deloitte is only paying €60k without any bonus, in contrast Strategy& is paying €83k + 15-20k bonus + perks, other companies like Berger pay €65k + perks + bonus of 15-20k; haven't applied to OW but they should be in the same range (I know that undergraduates start with 55k + bonus). ATK is paying a little less than Berger, at least their base is slightly less. The pay gap alone would be sufficient to derive that Deloitte should have problems of attracting top talent when others pay 20-40k more p.a. Furthermore, in France and Germany nobody wants to work there - at least not if you're MBB caliber but didn't make it in the first place, then other alternatives like Strategy&, Berger, Wyman or AT Kearney are much more interesting.

In Germany their team is only 150 people strong which is quite small, heard about the same size for France. Former Deloitte S&O employees also told me that Deloitte is not happy with its brand positioning at the moment and tries to rebrand the Monitor Group more. I mean it makes sense it was foreseeable that the fees Deloitte would be able to command are also dependent on the prestige and success of the firm. Deloitte is perceived as a big4 company but not necessarily as a management consulting firm. In the US they are much stronger that's true but elsewhere the brand name doesn't carry a lot.
Are these figures for post-MBA? Or just normal Masters?

Interesting analysis re: Deloitte's brand positioning. I've always been of the belief that Deloitte Monitor was a tad higher than Strategy&, given Deloitte as a brand is generally seen as stronger than PwC. That seems not to be the case!

I presume, as well, that the dynamics are slightly different in the UK than they are in Germany/France? For example, Roland Berger are usually seen as just next to MBB in Germany, but generally a notch below everywhere else.


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MattRaupa
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Normal postgraduate degrees. A fellow of mine who applied there straight after his UK PhD for a position in a German office (guess they pay the same for MBAs) received an offer of about €130.000 total.

That's true, the dynamics are slightly different in the UK, for instance OC&C and LEK are regarded much more prestigious in Great Britain than in continental Europe where they are not really influential. Berger has a strong position in Germany and France, no idea about the UK, but guess there they are just regarded as a normal tier 2 company.

PwC meanwhile is the strongest of the Big 4, no idea about their reputation though, but Strategy& is not really as integrated as Monitor Deloitte where Monitor is not visible anymore.

Strategy& seems to be totally independent and is marketed to be a member of PwCs network, I guess a pretty smart move. Else they would tab into the same trap like Deloitte and ruin the prestige, erode the fees base, get into trouble with their audit practice and lose talent. My experience with them was that they have their own recruiting/HR, different payment scale and it is not possible to enter Strategy& from PwC without passing the S& HR. Seems that they use the Oliver Wyman - MMC model which was pretty successful.

Overall, Berger and Strategy& both made really good impressions to me, culture wise they are both interesting. What's your impression of OC&C and LEK in UK?
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KajWan
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Thanks guys for your responses so far, I really appreciate. Cool to get opinions not only from GB but also Germany and France? Matt I have a few questions, I pm you later if that's okay?

@welcometoib, why would you put Oliver W. higher than the others? My perception was that OW is good in FS but has more or less a boutique status for the remaining practices?
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welcometoib
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(Original post by Princepieman)
Are these figures for post-MBA? Or just normal Masters?

Interesting analysis re: Deloitte's brand positioning. I've always been of the belief that Deloitte Monitor was a tad higher than Strategy&, given Deloitte as a brand is generally seen as stronger than PwC. That seems not to be the case!

I presume, as well, that the dynamics are slightly different in the UK than they are in Germany/France? For example, Roland Berger are usually seen as just next to MBB in Germany, but generally a notch below everywhere else.


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booz vs monitor... is that a close contest? RBs german market rep pushes them a lot , dont forget germany is considered one of the top 3 markets for consulting worldwide.
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welcometoib
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(Original post by KajWan)
Thanks guys for your responses so far, I really appreciate. Cool to get opinions not only from GB but also Germany and France? Matt I have a few questions, I pm you later if that's okay?

@welcometoib, why would you put Oliver W. higher than the others? My perception was that OW is good in FS but has more or less a boutique status for the remaining practices?
I rank OW a little higher simply because their intake is like for like MBB, its just that they focus on i guess smaller markets than MBB which makes them "less known" for me, otherwise quality wise, i see no different at all between them and MBB.
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welcometoib
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(Original post by MattRaupa)
Normal postgraduate degrees. A fellow of mine who applied there straight after his UK PhD for a position in a German office (guess they pay the same for MBAs) received an offer of about €130.000 total.

That's true, the dynamics are slightly different in the UK, for instance OC&C and LEK are regarded much more prestigious in Great Britain than in continental Europe where they are not really influential. Berger has a strong position in Germany and France, no idea about the UK, but guess there they are just regarded as a normal tier 2 company.

PwC meanwhile is the strongest of the Big 4, no idea about their reputation though, but Strategy& is not really as integrated as Monitor Deloitte where Monitor is not visible anymore.

Strategy& seems to be totally independent and is marketed to be a member of PwCs network, I guess a pretty smart move. Else they would tab into the same trap like Deloitte and ruin the prestige, erode the fees base, get into trouble with their audit practice and lose talent. My experience with them was that they have their own recruiting/HR, different payment scale and it is not possible to enter Strategy& from PwC without passing the S& HR. Seems that they use the Oliver Wyman - MMC model which was pretty successful.

Overall, Berger and Strategy& both made really good impressions to me, culture wise they are both interesting. What's your impression of OC&C and LEK in UK?
Staregy and starting salary for a new undergraduate student is circa 45k! And agree with the lack of movement avaliable from pwc consulting to pwc strategy and, you have to reapply with a whole new cl and cv and go through all the stages again.
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MattRaupa
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Yeah exactly, PWC Consulting and Strategy& are totally different things and legal entities.

Talked to one of their partners weeks ago about the rationale of the acquisition. He told me that Strategy& is intended to become the distinct spearhead of the Consulting practice, they do the strategy and executive work, whereas the implementation work is then handed over to the guys and specialists at PWC Consulting. Actually it is a good idea, thereby PWC can provide the client a full service suite and do not need to leave them alone once a strategy has been developed. Their model will be more or less comparable to a universal bank, they can offer all services. Not too dumb I think.

GBP 45k? Sounds like IB salaries, is there a signing bonus and yearly bonus? A friend of mine started as an analyst at a bulge bracket in London and received the same.
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throwawaycon
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40+signing is about right (all in first year comp of 45+). IB make more because of their bonuses, which are much smaller in consulting (maybe 10%, but it's firm dependent).
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orich
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42 base + 10%ish sign-on + ~10% typical bonus with decent work, so just over 50k total Y1
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Princepieman
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(Original post by orich)
42 base + 10%ish sign-on + ~10% typical bonus with decent work, so just over 50k total Y1
Which firm?

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throwawaycon
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(Original post by Princepieman)
Which firm?

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That's pretty standard starting.
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Princepieman
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(Original post by throwawaycon)
That's pretty standard starting.
Fair, it looks quite healthy actually!
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orich
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(Original post by throwawaycon)
That's pretty standard starting.
S&, but all of MBB + most tier 2s are similar +-5%. I'm pretty sure OC&C is £45k base and McKinsey £42k.
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