Why haven't other countries copied the NHS? Watch

anitax
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Even ones like Sweden, Finland etc.?
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thecatwithnohat
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idk

Have you heard about how they're planning to scrap NHS funding for degrees like Nursing etc. in 2017/18 meaning that the students will need to pay £9000 tuition fees like the rest of us? :eek:
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anitax
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(Original post by thecatwithnohat)
idk

Have you heard about how they're planning to scrap NHS funding for degrees like Nursing etc. in 2017/18 meaning that the students will need to pay £9000 tuition fees like the rest of us? :eek:
No, are they doing it for Medicine too?
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an_atheist
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The reason is because the system as we have it is massively flawed.
It too damn expensive, and is used willy nilly by the populace, instead of as something for ailments that actually require medical attention.
I couldn't give a c rap if you have a minor cold, go home and wait it out. If you've broken your arm, got blood in your urine or whatever, then use it, but the wastage caused by erroneous use is huge and needs to be dealt with.
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anitax
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(Original post by an_atheist)
The reason is because the system as we have it is massively flawed.
It too damn expensive, and is used willy nilly by the populace, instead of as something for ailments that actually require medical attention.
I couldn't give a c rap if you have a minor cold, go home and wait it out. If you've broken your arm, got blood in your urine or whatever, then use it, but the wastage caused by erroneous use is huge and needs to be dealt with.
My mum used to work as an NHS manager, she said the waste in hospitals is huge
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thecatwithnohat
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(Original post by anitax)
No, are they doing it for Medicine too?
Nope, only for nurses, midwives and allied health professionals.

Another source: http://roarnews.co.uk/wordpress/?p=19853
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an_atheist
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(Original post by anitax)
My mum used to work as an NHS manager, she said the waste in hospitals is huge
That's my point. The amount of money that is essentially thrown down the toilet is vast, and it is mostly because of either the hospitals being ripped off by suppliers, bureaucracy in the middle management or because many use it as a cure-all when in reality it doesn't work like that and a good 60-70% don't need to be there at all.
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JoshDawg
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It's not been copied because it's so damn expensive x)

Great service though. Has some managerial issues but everything the NHS has done for me has been stellar.
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anitax
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(Original post by JoshDawg)
It's not been copied because it's so damn expensive x)

Great service though. Has some managerial issues but everything the NHS has done for me has been stellar.
How come countries like Sweden with even more tax than the UK haven't copied it though?

Which managerial issues?
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JoshDawg
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(Original post by anitax)
How come countries like Sweden with even more tax than the UK haven't copied it though?

Which managerial issues?
Sweden has likely found other things to invest its money in, and them introducing free healthcare would undercut the privatised ones which could affect how much tax it takes in (stab in the dark there).

My sister is a nurse in the NHS and the procedure they have to do just to get simple things done, resources being directed in unhelpful places, the whole system needs a shakeup, but it would take a lot of work.
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Ambitious1999
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Libya had its own health service under colonel Gaddafi until NATO helped destroy the Libyan government and the Arab peoples Jamarihiya. Now sadly they've got nothing.

The USSR, and Warsaw Pact had its own NHS until the USSR ceased to exist. China had a health service under Mao.
Cuba has its own health service.
North Korea also has their own health service.
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nulli tertius
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Because other countries discovered the weakness in NHS management before they could afford to set up anything similar.

The NHS is the classic example of diseconomies of scale. Things that are not separate jobs in smaller organisations, not only have designated individuals to perform them in the NHS but have management structures to manage the function.

If you look at BMI the private healthcare provider, it runs 60 small hospitals. The management of the hospitals; the lightbulb changing, the HR function, the making sure that there are clean sheets in the laundry cupboard and patient note forms in the stationery cupboard is handled far more efficiently than in the NHS.

In the NHS those management structures run in the interests of those managing the function. It doesn't matter to the paperclip delivery department what the implications are for nursing of the system to order paperclips. The paperclip delivery department devises the best system for managing paperclips on the basis that the NHS revolves around paperclip delivery. However the accounts function and the storage function and the internal audit function are doing exactly same to the paperclip delivery function as the paperclip delivery function is inflicting on the nursing function.
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username878267
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Because other countries discovered the weakness in NHS management before they could afford to set up anything similar.

The NHS is the classic example of diseconomies of scale. Things that are not separate jobs in smaller organisations, not only have designated individuals to perform them in the NHS but have management structures to manage the function.

If you look at BMI the private healthcare provider, it runs 60 small hospitals. The management of the hospitals; the lightbulb changing, the HR function, the making sure that there are clean sheets in the laundry cupboard and patient note forms in the stationery cupboard is handled far more efficiently than in the NHS.

In the NHS those management structures run in the interests of those managing the function. It doesn't matter to the paperclip delivery department what the implications are for nursing of the system to order paperclips. The paperclip delivery department devises the best system for managing paperclips on the basis that the NHS revolves around paperclip delivery. However the accounts function and the storage function and the internal audit function are doing exactly same to the paperclip delivery function as the paperclip delivery function is inflicting on the nursing function.
The problem is you're trying to treat the Nhs like a business. It shouldn't be, its a service.
I don't want it to start paying its staff nothing and cutting corners. I don't want them to see a person with cancer as a money making opportunity.

And you have fallen into the trap, the NHS is underfunded, it nerds more not less money.

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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Bornblue)
The problem is you're trying to treat the Nhs like a business. It shouldn't be, its a service.
I don't want it to start paying its staff nothing and cutting corners. I don't want them to see a person with cancer as a money making opportunity.

And you have fallen into the trap, the NHS is underfunded, it nerds more not less money.

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The NHS isn't a business, but it does need to get value for money out of the investment.

Have you ever looked at the funding model for European nations? They manage to cope very well.

NHS staff get paid a reasonable wage. Throwing money at wages however won't improve how the NHS operates, there some rather systematic failures in its operating structure.

Remember though that the NHS has been in crisis since its inception in the 40s. It needs to be a bit more open to change.
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username878267
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The NHS isn't a business, but it does need to get value for money out of the investment.

Have you ever looked at the funding model for European nations? They manage to cope very well.

NHS staff get paid a reasonable wage. Throwing money at wages however won't improve how the NHS operates, there some rather systematic failures in its operating structure.

Remember though that the NHS has been in crisis since its inception in the 40s. It needs to be a bit more open to change.
True but it's been underfunded by all parties in recent years. Of course there are inefficiencies, but I'd rather inefficiencies then cut corners.
For all Blairs bad points he ft waiting times down from 18 months to 18 weeks because he poured money into the system.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Bornblue)
The problem is you're trying to treat the Nhs like a business. It shouldn't be, its a service.
I don't want it to start paying its staff nothing and cutting corners. I don't want them to see a person with cancer as a money making opportunity.

And you have fallen into the trap, the NHS is underfunded, it nerds more not less money.

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It certainly does not have too little money. All that happens when it is given more money is that its efficiency level falls further.

This isn't about it being a business; the illustration using BMI is about scale not ownership.

The NHS has always had, from inception, private businesses providing services to the NHS; GPs, dentists, opticians, pharmacies. Over the last 20 years or so it has tried to introduce, with some success, private businesses providing other sorts of health care.

Much more significantly and with frankly very little success, the government (Major, Blair and Cameron) has had several attempts to provide an internal "pretend" market in the NHS. The theory behind this is that large commercial businesses don't have the schloretic management of the NHS. Therefore if we make the NHS like commercial businesses its management problems will disappear. It hasn't worked and indeed has created further levels of bureaucracy.

Ultimately the issue that very large organisations face is aligning their separate functions with aims of the organisation as a whole. One way of attempting to do that is profit but it is not the only way. The military does it via rank. Rank tends to cut across management structures.
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TheCitizenAct
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Why would they want to copy it when they can just turn the British NHS into the world health service? It's called health tourism. Let a small part of the world pay for it, and bleed them dry.

It's multicultural, don't you know?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Bornblue)
True but it's been underfunded by all parties in recent years. Of course there are inefficiencies, but I'd rather inefficiencies then cut corners.
For all Blairs bad points he ft waiting times down from 18 months to 18 weeks because he poured money into the system.
Blair threw money at the issue for very little discernible improvement. Yes he cut waiting times but managed that by employing additional nurses who saw patients. The patient wasn't treated by the additional nurse. Just seen as a tick box excercise to say 'look what we've achieved.'

I'd like to see a European healthcare system in the uk or at least introduce some of its benefits. Charging foreigners for its use to recoup cost, nominal charges to deter time wasters and charges made for non attendance.

Unions representing health workers have effectively spun the nations health linked to their pay and conditions.
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username878267
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
It certainly does not have too little money. All that happens when it is given more money is that its efficiency level falls further.

This isn't about it being a business; the illustration using BMI is about scale not ownership.

The NHS has always had, from inception, private businesses providing services to the NHS; GPs, dentists, opticians, pharmacies. Over the last 20 years or so it has tried to introduce, with some success, private businesses providing other sorts of health care.

Much more significantly and with frankly very little success, the government (Major, Blair and Cameron) has had several attempts to provide an internal "pretend" market in the NHS. The theory behind this is that large commercial businesses don't have the schloretic management of the NHS. Therefore if we make the NHS like commercial businesses its management problems will disappear. It hasn't worked and indeed has created further levels of bureaucracy.

Ultimately the issue that very large organisations face is aligning their separate functions with aims of the organisation as a whole. One way of attempting to do that is profit but it is not the only way. The military does it via rank. Rank tends to cut across management structures.
As soon as you introduce a profit motive, it encourages cut corners, low wages and providing a bare minimum acceptable service.

The more money it has the better it is, it's that simple. Inefficiencies are far more preferable to cut corners.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Bornblue)
As soon as you introduce a profit motive, it encourages cut corners, low wages and providing a bare minimum acceptable service.
If that is the case why do you think that people choose private healthcare and why do you think that staff choose to work in private medicine?
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