Have you heard of the EngD? Alternative to a science PhD!
Hey TSR! I'm going to tell you guys about something that many of you have probably never even heard of. The EngD. I am currently a first year EngD student and I'm writing this out of will - I am not being sponsored to write. The EngD is an amazing alternative to the traditional but faulty PhD, but it is largely unheard of due to it being newer and smaller than the PhD. It needs much more recognition and so here I am! 
OveriewWhat is it?
In 1990 a study found a huge skills gap in the science industry with regards to leadership and management skills. Other studies found that PhDs suffer from the problem of little or no industry experience, which is highly sought after by employers, and PhDs were too focussed on a narrow set of technical skills. The EngD was born to fix these problems.
In essence the EngD is an industry led PhD. The student researcher spends approximately 75% of their time at the company and 25% of their time doing taught modules. These taught modules include MBA business modules and MSc level technical courses. The aim of the EngD is to provide the researcher with a wide set of highly valuable skills. Sounds good, yeah? Read on!
The EngD is a four year programme beginning with one academic year in university on technical courses followed by three years working at your industrial placement. During the industry years you complete the business courses alongside your work and there are regular technical workshops for furthering your skills. All enrollment/tuition feess are paid for, and you get a hefty budget for any required travel. The EngD culminates in the production of a thesis (200 - 400 pages expected) and the defense of the thesis in a viva, much like in a PhD.
1992 saw the first EngD pilot schemes at the universities of Warwick, Manchester, and Swansea. These were joined by Brunel, Surrey, and Cranfield a year later. Since then the scheme has undergone sustained expansion and is a nationwide scheme found across many universities. A 2007 review found the scheme had been a huge success! So far 1400 students have graduated from the scheme and over 600 companies are actively involved.
Who is it for?
The EngD is a doctoral level STEM degree and so you are expected to hold a Master's in a STEM-related subject before applying. An MPhys, MEng, or MSc degree is preferred, and prior industry experience is advantageous, but so long as your degree is related to your project you can get in. You will need a high 2.1 or a first to be considered. This makes the EngD generally more challenging to be accepted on to compared to PhDs. The interview stage of the EngD consists of one interview at the host university and a second at the industrial company. You must perform strongly in both or you will be rejected. Make sure you know how to talk to professors and industry members and you have carried out deep research into the project you wish to undertake!
Projects you hear me say? Like science PhDs there are a number of EngD projects on offer at any one time and you apply for them as you would a PhD. Projects range from areas of physics, to engineering, to chemistry, to computer science. Picking a topic that has relationships to your degree would maximise your chance of being accepted.
How does it compare to a PhD?
Employment Rate after 6 months:
PhD: 74%
CASE PhD: 80%
EngD: 91%
As can be seen, the EngD doctoral degree is much more employable. This is further boosted by the company the EngD is based at offering a job in most cases after graduation.
Salary 6 months after graduation:
PhD: Typically high £20k's, although a wide range is seen.
EngD: 35% on £25-30k and 35% on £30-35k making these the main earning areas. Almost 20% earn more than £40k, almost 10% earn more than £50k, and about 5% earn more than £60k.
Note that the EngD also contributes largely towards chartered status (CEng), which may be achieved within months or a few years of EngD graduation. The median salary for someone with a CEng is £63k and 14% earn more than £100k. A PhD does not contribute as much towards chartered status.
Career Progression
Both the PhD and EngD provide strong career progression, but there is limited evidence to suggest the EngD provides faster promotions due to the managerial and leadership skills developed.
Pay During the Doctorate
PhD: About £13k-£14k
EngD: About £19k-£21k
The EngD is funded in the same way as a PhD but it is topped up by your company, resulting in a higher salary and more money in general to play with. Note that all EngD income is tax free. This puts the EngD in a similar band to what PhD graduates earn.
Skills Gained
PhD: Technical skills.
EngD: Technical skills, business/managments/leadership skills, company skills.
Downsides?I am not here to sell the EngD. I am here to show you it. And so I am obliged to list the downsides of the EngD to the PhD.
1. Limited choice of projects. There are much fewer EngD projects available than PhD. The range is still good and is definitely worth looking into, but you may not be able to find what you want.
2. EngD is fairly unknown. This means you will have to explain it to some future employers, and it isn't an easy thing to quickly explain.
3. Taught modules, ew. Well, this can be an advantage or a disadvantage based on how much you enjoy learning. For me the thought of coursework and exams makes my stomach churn. When choosing between an EngD and PhD I saw these technical modules in the first year as the biggest detraction. I am looking forward to the business courses though as they are something different and are learnt over a longer period rather than intensively.
Upsides?And for the biggest attractions to the EngD. I have taken these from a survey of EngD students.
1. Business Skills. Definitely a key advantage over PhDs.
2. Working in industry. Most EngD students say that working in industry rather than in a university lab was a key motivation for choosing the EngD.
3. Not being underpaid, unlike the PhD. EngD students talk about the EngD as offering them good money for the skills they possess. A PhD simply underpays someone who has spent 4+ years earning a Master's. Let's face it, no one wants to be living frugally for all their early adulthood.
QuotesAnd finally...
Overiew
In 1990 a study found a huge skills gap in the science industry with regards to leadership and management skills. Other studies found that PhDs suffer from the problem of little or no industry experience, which is highly sought after by employers, and PhDs were too focussed on a narrow set of technical skills. The EngD was born to fix these problems.
In essence the EngD is an industry led PhD. The student researcher spends approximately 75% of their time at the company and 25% of their time doing taught modules. These taught modules include MBA business modules and MSc level technical courses. The aim of the EngD is to provide the researcher with a wide set of highly valuable skills. Sounds good, yeah? Read on!
The EngD is a four year programme beginning with one academic year in university on technical courses followed by three years working at your industrial placement. During the industry years you complete the business courses alongside your work and there are regular technical workshops for furthering your skills. All enrollment/tuition feess are paid for, and you get a hefty budget for any required travel. The EngD culminates in the production of a thesis (200 - 400 pages expected) and the defense of the thesis in a viva, much like in a PhD.
1992 saw the first EngD pilot schemes at the universities of Warwick, Manchester, and Swansea. These were joined by Brunel, Surrey, and Cranfield a year later. Since then the scheme has undergone sustained expansion and is a nationwide scheme found across many universities. A 2007 review found the scheme had been a huge success! So far 1400 students have graduated from the scheme and over 600 companies are actively involved.
Who is it for?
The EngD is a doctoral level STEM degree and so you are expected to hold a Master's in a STEM-related subject before applying. An MPhys, MEng, or MSc degree is preferred, and prior industry experience is advantageous, but so long as your degree is related to your project you can get in. You will need a high 2.1 or a first to be considered. This makes the EngD generally more challenging to be accepted on to compared to PhDs. The interview stage of the EngD consists of one interview at the host university and a second at the industrial company. You must perform strongly in both or you will be rejected. Make sure you know how to talk to professors and industry members and you have carried out deep research into the project you wish to undertake!
Projects you hear me say? Like science PhDs there are a number of EngD projects on offer at any one time and you apply for them as you would a PhD. Projects range from areas of physics, to engineering, to chemistry, to computer science. Picking a topic that has relationships to your degree would maximise your chance of being accepted.
How does it compare to a PhD?
Employment Rate after 6 months:
PhD: 74%
CASE PhD: 80%
EngD: 91%
As can be seen, the EngD doctoral degree is much more employable. This is further boosted by the company the EngD is based at offering a job in most cases after graduation.
Salary 6 months after graduation:
PhD: Typically high £20k's, although a wide range is seen.
EngD: 35% on £25-30k and 35% on £30-35k making these the main earning areas. Almost 20% earn more than £40k, almost 10% earn more than £50k, and about 5% earn more than £60k.
Note that the EngD also contributes largely towards chartered status (CEng), which may be achieved within months or a few years of EngD graduation. The median salary for someone with a CEng is £63k and 14% earn more than £100k. A PhD does not contribute as much towards chartered status.
Career Progression
Both the PhD and EngD provide strong career progression, but there is limited evidence to suggest the EngD provides faster promotions due to the managerial and leadership skills developed.
Pay During the Doctorate
PhD: About £13k-£14k
EngD: About £19k-£21k
The EngD is funded in the same way as a PhD but it is topped up by your company, resulting in a higher salary and more money in general to play with. Note that all EngD income is tax free. This puts the EngD in a similar band to what PhD graduates earn.
Skills Gained
PhD: Technical skills.
EngD: Technical skills, business/managments/leadership skills, company skills.
Downsides?
1. Limited choice of projects. There are much fewer EngD projects available than PhD. The range is still good and is definitely worth looking into, but you may not be able to find what you want.
2. EngD is fairly unknown. This means you will have to explain it to some future employers, and it isn't an easy thing to quickly explain.
3. Taught modules, ew. Well, this can be an advantage or a disadvantage based on how much you enjoy learning. For me the thought of coursework and exams makes my stomach churn. When choosing between an EngD and PhD I saw these technical modules in the first year as the biggest detraction. I am looking forward to the business courses though as they are something different and are learnt over a longer period rather than intensively.
Upsides?
1. Business Skills. Definitely a key advantage over PhDs.
2. Working in industry. Most EngD students say that working in industry rather than in a university lab was a key motivation for choosing the EngD.
3. Not being underpaid, unlike the PhD. EngD students talk about the EngD as offering them good money for the skills they possess. A PhD simply underpays someone who has spent 4+ years earning a Master's. Let's face it, no one wants to be living frugally for all their early adulthood.
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AMA (related)!
I will do my best.(edited 8 years ago)
What 1990 study'?
What are your sources for the statistics you have used?
Where did you get the 'student' quotes from?
This is an Opinion piece pretending that it has been well researched and pretending it is presenting an objective view. That it does not give sources for any of the evidence presented means that it should not be regarded as rigorous research or reliable factual information.
What are your sources for the statistics you have used?
Where did you get the 'student' quotes from?
This is an Opinion piece pretending that it has been well researched and pretending it is presenting an objective view. That it does not give sources for any of the evidence presented means that it should not be regarded as rigorous research or reliable factual information.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by returnmigrant
What 1990 study'?
What are your sources for the statistics you have used?
Where did you get the 'student' quotes from?
This is an Opinion piece pretending that it has been well researched and pretending it is presenting an objective view. That it does not give sources for any of the evidence presented means that it should not be regarded as rigorous research or reliable factual information.
What are your sources for the statistics you have used?
Where did you get the 'student' quotes from?
This is an Opinion piece pretending that it has been well researched and pretending it is presenting an objective view. That it does not give sources for any of the evidence presented means that it should not be regarded as rigorous research or reliable factual information.
The vast majority of the statistics and quotes I borrowed from a recent review (2015), which cited a number of other studies.
You can read this review here:
http://www.aengd.org.uk/files/4114/4196/1321/Understanding_the_EngD_Impact.v6_with_cover.pdf
Some quotes had parts removed to be more succinct, but I did not remove anything that changed the meaning of the quote. The quotes are all near the end of the document.
Other facts and statistics have come from a larger variety of sources. If you point to something not in the above report then I'll point you in the direction of where the data can be confirmed.
The 1990 study I can't seem to find a link to, but it is by John Parnaby. I will look again later.
You may find this website useful:
http://www.aengd.org.uk/
I thought that the EngD was only engineering related, not STEM as a whole, hence the "Eng".
If the research project is done in conjunction with an industry sponsor, it's much more likely to be highly industrially relevant, unlike a traditional PhD, in which the research outcome may only be an academic interest. I think that this is probably the most significant contributing factor to the higher employability of the EngD to the PhD... as an engineering graduate I'm not particularly sold on the idea that you actually gain genuine "business" or "leadership" skills from the odd business or leadership module ingrained into the degree.
If the research project is done in conjunction with an industry sponsor, it's much more likely to be highly industrially relevant, unlike a traditional PhD, in which the research outcome may only be an academic interest. I think that this is probably the most significant contributing factor to the higher employability of the EngD to the PhD... as an engineering graduate I'm not particularly sold on the idea that you actually gain genuine "business" or "leadership" skills from the odd business or leadership module ingrained into the degree.
If you look at the St Andrews website you will see that most of the OP is lifted from their site or from sites accessed by following the links from their EngD course page. The OP is apparently 'spending a Semester there' but on another post claims he is 'about to make about £28k per year as I am researching towards a doctorate degree'.
Given that the OP's previous contributions on TSR have been almost entirely on Chat boards, the sudden appearance of this 'article' suggests that this post is simply a marketing push by St Andrews to publicise their program.
Please be aware of this - and that much of the material it contains is not referenced.
Given that the OP's previous contributions on TSR have been almost entirely on Chat boards, the sudden appearance of this 'article' suggests that this post is simply a marketing push by St Andrews to publicise their program.
Please be aware of this - and that much of the material it contains is not referenced.
Original post by Smack
I thought that the EngD was only engineering related, not STEM as a whole, hence the "Eng".
If the research project is done in conjunction with an industry sponsor, it's much more likely to be highly industrially relevant, unlike a traditional PhD, in which the research outcome may only be an academic interest. I think that this is probably the most significant contributing factor to the higher employability of the EngD to the PhD... as an engineering graduate I'm not particularly sold on the idea that you actually gain genuine "business" or "leadership" skills from the odd business or leadership module ingrained into the degree.
If the research project is done in conjunction with an industry sponsor, it's much more likely to be highly industrially relevant, unlike a traditional PhD, in which the research outcome may only be an academic interest. I think that this is probably the most significant contributing factor to the higher employability of the EngD to the PhD... as an engineering graduate I'm not particularly sold on the idea that you actually gain genuine "business" or "leadership" skills from the odd business or leadership module ingrained into the degree.
I do agree that the naming of the EngD was a poor choice. It seems to refer to engineering in the broadest of senses. But as evidence that EngD projects can be very much in other realms you can have a look at http://www.cdtphotonics.hw.ac.uk/prospective_students_project_vacancies.html (just an example of one of the many EngD vacancy websites)
Some of the listed are related to physics and the last might even fall into the realm of computer science depending on exactly where your boundaries lay. My personal project is in machine learning, which is definitely computer science in my opinion.
Industry experience is certainly a leading factor in the higher employability. The business modules are going to be limited in what they offer. I would 100% agree with that. At least 600 hours of business modules are taken, so that is 600 hours of learning about managements skills, business skills, and leadership skills. While I do agree that this is not the same as actually putting these skills into practice, it is still something that can go on a CV and puts you just that much further ahead of a PhD applicant. It also makes you more prepared for managerial or leadership roles.
Original post by returnmigrant
If you look at the St Andrews website you will see that most of the OP is lifted from their site or from sites accessed by following the links from their EngD course page. The OP is apparently 'spending a Semester there' but on another post claims he is 'about to make about £28k per year as I am researching towards a doctorate degree'.
Given that the OP's previous contributions on TSR have been almost entirely on Chat boards, the sudden appearance of this 'article' suggests that this post is simply a marketing push by St Andrews to publicise their program.
Please be aware of this - and that much of the material it contains is not referenced.
Given that the OP's previous contributions on TSR have been almost entirely on Chat boards, the sudden appearance of this 'article' suggests that this post is simply a marketing push by St Andrews to publicise their program.
Please be aware of this - and that much of the material it contains is not referenced.
The scheme I am on is not being run at St Andrews and I have now left that university for good. My next stop is both Glasgow and Strathclyde universities where I will be doing part of the taught technical modules at each.
My sources did not come from St A's and I have listed my main source in my previous post quoting yours. It just appears that their EngD centre gets their information from the same places I get mine.
I do make the equilavent of about £28k when income tax, student loan repayments, and council tax are factored in. This is a number that can be compared to people in normal jobs and not on scholarships. I apologise for the confusion there.
Please can you point out any information you feel I have not referenced. My previous reply to you contained the source for 95% of what is in the OP (Hint: use the ctrl+f feature to search the document). The rest I can reference for you on request, but I would need to dig for where I saw that information.
(edited 8 years ago)
Disadvantages of a professional doctorate:
… if you're uncertain about your future career pathway, a professional doctorate is not considered to be such good preparation for academia. That's hard enough to get into and you have reduced your chances. A PhD keeps options open for longer.
…PhDs and professional doctorates are not always considered to be of equal value, which can be a disadvantage in some circumstances. For example, if you choose to go into teaching, PhDs can get a bursary of £30,000 but EngDs only £25,000 (same as candidates with 2.1s or Masters). Not saying that EngDs would want to become teachers - it's just an indication that the qualification may not so highly valued because of the high taught content of some courses (in my view this is incorrect but that's the way it is perceived).
…you're not really part of the university, often being there at evenings and weekends when the facilities you need may not be available.
…four/five years is a very long time to maintain motivation, especially when the real world work gets in the way.
I'm actually doing a professional doctorate (not EngD) and I had very particular reasons for choosing it - but it wouldn't be an option I would lightly recommend for others.
… if you're uncertain about your future career pathway, a professional doctorate is not considered to be such good preparation for academia. That's hard enough to get into and you have reduced your chances. A PhD keeps options open for longer.
…PhDs and professional doctorates are not always considered to be of equal value, which can be a disadvantage in some circumstances. For example, if you choose to go into teaching, PhDs can get a bursary of £30,000 but EngDs only £25,000 (same as candidates with 2.1s or Masters). Not saying that EngDs would want to become teachers - it's just an indication that the qualification may not so highly valued because of the high taught content of some courses (in my view this is incorrect but that's the way it is perceived).
…you're not really part of the university, often being there at evenings and weekends when the facilities you need may not be available.
…four/five years is a very long time to maintain motivation, especially when the real world work gets in the way.
I'm actually doing a professional doctorate (not EngD) and I had very particular reasons for choosing it - but it wouldn't be an option I would lightly recommend for others.
Original post by Jantaculum
Disadvantages of a professional doctorate:
… if you're uncertain about your future career pathway, a professional doctorate is not considered to be such good preparation for academia. That's hard enough to get into and you have reduced your chances. A PhD keeps options open for longer.
…PhDs and professional doctorates are not always considered to be of equal value, which can be a disadvantage in some circumstances. For example, if you choose to go into teaching, PhDs can get a bursary of £30,000 but EngDs only £25,000 (same as candidates with 2.1s or Masters). Not saying that EngDs would want to become teachers - it's just an indication that the qualification may not so highly valued because of the high taught content of some courses (in my view this is incorrect but that's the way it is perceived).
…you're not really part of the university, often being there at evenings and weekends when the facilities you need may not be available.
…four/five years is a very long time to maintain motivation, especially when the real world work gets in the way.
I'm actually doing a professional doctorate (not EngD) and I had very particular reasons for choosing it - but it wouldn't be an option I would lightly recommend for others.
… if you're uncertain about your future career pathway, a professional doctorate is not considered to be such good preparation for academia. That's hard enough to get into and you have reduced your chances. A PhD keeps options open for longer.
…PhDs and professional doctorates are not always considered to be of equal value, which can be a disadvantage in some circumstances. For example, if you choose to go into teaching, PhDs can get a bursary of £30,000 but EngDs only £25,000 (same as candidates with 2.1s or Masters). Not saying that EngDs would want to become teachers - it's just an indication that the qualification may not so highly valued because of the high taught content of some courses (in my view this is incorrect but that's the way it is perceived).
…you're not really part of the university, often being there at evenings and weekends when the facilities you need may not be available.
…four/five years is a very long time to maintain motivation, especially when the real world work gets in the way.
I'm actually doing a professional doctorate (not EngD) and I had very particular reasons for choosing it - but it wouldn't be an option I would lightly recommend for others.
Yes, doors close if you pick the EngD. If you are 100% sure you want to work in academia then choosing the path of industry is not a good choice. But naturally, the EngD has the advantage if you do apply to industry at the end of the day as you already know how companies work.
Can you find a source on your point of EngD having a lower scholarship in teaching please? If it's true I might pass this on to people at the EngD centre and see if they want to email the teaching people to discuss this discrepancy. I want to know the reason behind it.
For the university point. You generally aren't at your university at all in the case of the EngD (- this might be a little different for your professional doctorate). Once you finish the technical courses in the first year you spend all your time at the company, which may even be on the other side of the country. You have no need to visit your university as your company provides all the equipment and support you require. You are expected to keep in touch with your university supervisor however, but this can be via email, phone calls, and the odd meeting that may be at the company.
Keeping motivation is a common problem for all doctoral degrees, be it PhDs, EngDs, or other. The courses help break up the EngD and keep it fresh, but if you take up any doctoral degree with the expectation that you will enjoy the entire thing, then you are in for a lot of disappointment. It's a rollercoaster.
Original post by Keyhofi
Can you find a source on your point of EngD having a lower scholarship in teaching please? If it's true I might pass this on to people at the EngD centre and see if they want to email the teaching people to discuss this discrepancy. I want to know the reason behind it.
Can you find a source on your point of EngD having a lower scholarship in teaching please? If it's true I might pass this on to people at the EngD centre and see if they want to email the teaching people to discuss this discrepancy. I want to know the reason behind it.
I had this bookmarked a while ago but can't find it just at the moment - it's in one of those 'terms and conditions' documents. Will have a search and let you know. From memory the reason for it was that a professional doctorate doesn't make enough of an original contribution to the body of knowledge, which you and I know is incorrect.
Edit: here it is. Note the ambiguity in section 40 - implication that professional doctorates have a 'substantial taught element' and that original research degrees are PhDs and DPhils
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482017/Training_Bursary_Guide_AY15.pdf
It's a further example of your 'downside point 2' - a professional doctorate isn't an easy thing to explain to a funding body where their guidance is ambiguous and they'd prefer to pay you the lower rate!
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Jantaculum
I had this bookmarked a while ago but can't find it just at the moment - it's in one of those 'terms and conditions' documents. Will have a search and let you know. From memory the reason for it was that a professional doctorate doesn't make enough of an original contribution to the body of knowledge, which you and I know is incorrect.
Edit: here it is. Note the ambiguity in section 40 - implication that professional doctorates have a 'substantial taught element' and that original research degrees are PhDs and DPhils
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482017/Training_Bursary_Guide_AY15.pdf
It's a further example of your 'downside point 2' - a professional doctorate isn't an easy thing to explain to a funding body where their guidance is ambiguous and they'd prefer to pay you the lower rate!
Edit: here it is. Note the ambiguity in section 40 - implication that professional doctorates have a 'substantial taught element' and that original research degrees are PhDs and DPhils
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482017/Training_Bursary_Guide_AY15.pdf
It's a further example of your 'downside point 2' - a professional doctorate isn't an easy thing to explain to a funding body where their guidance is ambiguous and they'd prefer to pay you the lower rate!
Thanks!
So point 40 reads...
40. The FHEQ’s descriptor of doctoral degrees sets out that they are awarded forthe“creation and interpretation, construction and/or exposition of knowledge whichextends the forefront of a discipline, usually through original research”. Professionaldoctoral programmes that may include a research component, but which have asubstantial taught element lead usually to awards which include the name of the disciplinein their title (Ed.D, DClinPsy or DBA are common examples). The titles PhD and DPhil arecommonly used for doctoral degrees awarded on the basis of original research. The levelof study associated with a doctoral degree should typically equate to 3 calendar years fulltimefor a research-based doctoral degree although it may take up to 5 years of full-time study for a professional doctoral degree. Honorary doctorates are not eligible academicqualifications and are not accepted by QAA as academic qualifications.
It is very vague. EngD is considered a research degree and features over 3 years of original knowledge creation, which is equilvalent to a PhD. The taught modules are a minor part of the degree and a bonus rather than a replacement.
I'm tempted to say that if you spoke to them about the degree they would be willing to accept it in place of a PhD. All other jobs seemingly do. The whole point of the EngD is that it is an alternative to the PhD, not a separate path, but a complementary degree.
A load of complete nonsense. R D Feltham PhD (Eng), MBA, DMS (indentured 5 year Electronic Engineering served apprentice). This infantile approach is all to keep training costs, and the time necessary for that training, down because no employers any longer will pay for the creme-de-la-creme.
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