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Abu Ghraib

What do people think, should someone high up in the Bush Administration have resigned for what occured, Rumsfeld for example, in order to demonstrate that they were not underplaying the seriousness of what went on?

It seems to me that they are trying to push responsibility down as far as possible in order to save face during an election year.

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Reply 1

Vienna

Cossack

that depends if they were guilty of anything.

Reply 2

Cossack

vienna95

that depends if they were guilty of anything.

Do they have to be guilty of something? Do you not think it is necessary to resign as a symbol to the muslim world that the incidents were being taken seriously?? In my opinion court martialling a couple of squaddies is not enough

Reply 3

Outrageous

Well as it stands now, this case will end with the resignation of Janis Karpinski, the general responsible so to speak, will be the scapegoat and the story will fade. No actual measures will be taken of course. That is how these matters are usually solved.

This is how business is done in the military sometimes and so never mind who suffer. The only unfortunate thing is of course that this leaked to the public. Besides it was only a few people here and there.

Scapegoat and fade out. End of story.

And no Rumsfeld will not resign. The man does not own a heart let alone a conscience.

I actually came across a far more disturbing article on equally grotesk things taking place in israeli prisons. Here though, palestinian women were hauled out of their homes and taken to prison, raped while being filmed or photographed and then this would be used to blackmail them with just in case they decide to flee the shame and the country.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Special%20Section/prisoners%20and%20detension/Israeli%20Guards%20Rape%20Palestinian%20Women.htm

I can't find the linkso this will have to do.

Has anything on this been in the media? I don't recall seeing this.

Reply 4

Vienna

Cossack

Do they have to be guilty of something? Do you not think it is necessary to resign as a symbol to the muslim world that the incidents were being taken seriously??

they were being taken seriously, according to the principle of innocent until proven guilty. the very same principles of a democratic and free society that are trying to be educated into the middle east. for their part, Abu Ghraib didnt appear to alter the Iraqi view if polls are to be believed.

indeed, a Newsweek poll shows that while,

"a staggering 92 percent view the Coalition forces as "occupiers" as opposed to 2 percent who consider them "liberators;" and 55 percent say they would feel more safe if the Coalition forces left"

we still have,

"63 percent are happy to have an interim Iraqi government after June 30; 51 percent feel "very safe" in their neighborhoods; 64 percent say that the conflicts in Fallujah and Karbala have made Iraq more unified; 51 percent are now more interested in joining the Iraqi security forces than they were three months ago; 87 percent believe that the Iraqi security forces will be capable of keeping order without the help of the coalition forces. Abu Ghraib didn't have much of an impact. Most Iraqis say that the abuses are what they expect from Americans (54 percent believe all Americans are like Lynndie England). But the fundamental reason that U.S. forces are opposed is because they are viewed as an occupation, not because of their conduct."

Reply 5

Vienna

Outrageous

Has anything on this been in the media? I don't recall seeing this.

did anyone see a report about Martians landing on the moon? i dont believe it, but the 'We Love Martians' club is sure, so im game.

Reply 6

zizero

Rumsfeld bears the political responsibility for what happened in Abu Ghraib. Even if he's not personally responsible, he ought to resign.

BTW, we've already had a thread on this.

http://www.uk-learning.net/t40592.html

Reply 7

Cossack

zizero

oops sorry missed that one

Reply 8

kriztinae

Cossack

oops sorry missed that one

dont worry its always good to hear a new side of the story
i never saw the old one

Reply 9

Outrageous

vienna95

did anyone see a report about Martians landing on the moon? i dont believe it, but the 'We Love Martians' club is sure, so im game.

So because its not on your favourite news channel then you mock something like that? How brutally cold.

It's insulting to those women being raped that you are comparing such atrocities to martians and although I fail to share this sick form of humour, by all means whatever floats your boat.

Basically Israeli soldiers, believe it or not, are humans and they too err. Rapes are committed because psychologically its the most effective way of weakening a woman.

I am sure its all made up. Anything that is a violation on the palestinian people is fiction, people. But of course. So was the camp of Jenin.

Is your preference to believe something always subject to who the victim is or what channel if any you saw it on?

Because in that case news flash, I worked for a major human rights organization and not every bloody case we were working on got front page coverage or coverage at all. As you can imagine, the news of trouble at beckingham, football etc. is far more interesting that corruption and abductions in Colombia or rapes or other atrocities taking place in the world.

Because you don't see it on TV does not mean it is not happening. But its appalling to see the mocking of such real threats towards women. And thats coming from a girl. Great stuff.

This appears to be the original news:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2003-02/08/article15.shtml

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-05/20/article03.shtml

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-09/24/article40.shtml

or alternatively these people should be asked:

Samer Khuwayera & Hanadi Dwaikat, IOL Correspondents

Reply 10

Vienna

Outrageous

i was questioning its authenticity bearing in mind the only source you provide is hardly the most objective. the fact that you took it as fact, and based an argument on this fact without any kind of examination of the report, worried me. even the quote above continues to take the allegations to be fact.

Reply 11

Outrageous

vienna95

I see. You are entitled to your sceptism but mind you, just because its not heavily featured in media, does not make it any less true. That is why I have also listed the journalists who actually reported this story. If you look through the links this unfortunately is not the only story of sexual assults. They are not exactly vague. The details and names that is. Rape is a serious matter nevertheless.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=104642004

Reply 12

Vienna

Outrageous

it doesnt make it any more factual either. im not claiming anything, you are.

If you look through the links this unfortunately is not the only story of sexual assults. They are not exactly vague. The details and names that is.

adds nothing.

Rape is a serious matter nevertheless.

that was never in question.

Reply 13

Outrageous

vienna95

it doesnt make it any more factual either. im not claiming anything, you are.

adds nothing.

that was never in question.

Yes I do believe that makes it more factual. You could contact the journalists if you still don't beleive. But I am actually not sure what you do believe. What is your criteria for stories to have any substance? At all? Its not like this story has no origin.

I think the additional information adds a lot. But I sense that you are too sceptic to want to believe. Its pretty strange how there appears to be a trend among palestinian people to make up rape accusations. Not just women but men too according to you.

It was not really clear from your post that took rape as being serious but rather something people make up apparently because they gain what? A headline with their name and picture? Its not like major law suits are taking place with huge sums that these victims could gain. We are talking about prison guard behaviour here. And I find it hard to believe that all of them are making this up. Its not exactly something to be proud of. Being raped that is. Its traumatic.

Is it really hard to believe that some stories are not run for political reasons as well whats sensational enough to sell more copies and what people expect to be headlines?

Reply 14

randdom

Cossack

I think that someone high up should resign. Because it is generally accepted now that these things did happen. Yes this person may not be directly responsible but thats politics for you. Sometimes people have to take a dive. There have been many cases in British politicians resigning over things which they at fault for, (the immigration scandal for example). I think that someone a bit higher up should put their hands up and say yes mistakes were made we accept that and something should have been done earlier therefore I resign. It happens in politics all the time and I don't see why this should be any different.

Reply 15

Yogafan

All is fair in love and war.
Remember those in the prisons are not innocent, they recieved what they should, punishment.
That is why i was happy to see these pictures, and to be honest anyone who dosnt understand warfare cannot comment. I cannot understand why people found this shocking! seriously, did you not believe this treatment is in action through out all those in prisons through out the world? it has and always shall continute, All is fair in love and war.
Any one who thought otherwise is naive

Reply 16

Vienna

Outrageous

Yes I do believe that makes it more factual. You could contact the journalists if you still don't beleive.

But I am actually not sure what you do believe. What is your criteria for stories to have any substance? At all? Its not like this story has no origin.

but which origin is that?

I think the additional information adds a lot. But I sense that you are too sceptic to want to believe. Its pretty strange how there appears to be a trend among palestinian people to make up rape accusations. Not just women but men too according to you.

indeed, strange.

It was not really clear from your post that took rape as being serious but rather something people make up apparently because they gain what?

it was not clear because it was not suggested. i made a comment relating to your appropriation of certain journalism into an argument without considering the value of that source.

A headline with their name and picture? Its not like major law suits are taking place with huge sums that these victims could gain. We are talking about prison guard behaviour here. And I find it hard to believe that all of them are making this up.

i think youre very much aware of the gains to be made by claiming rape is a systematic torture method of the Israelis.

Its not exactly something to be proud of. Being raped that is. Its traumatic.

you did it again. taking the allegations as being factual in an argument that seeks to assess the value of such.

Is it really hard to believe that some stories are not run for political reasons as well whats sensational enough to sell more copies and what people expect to be headlines?

in Palestine Monitor? or Islam Online? no.

Reply 17

kriztinae

Yogafan

so every prisinor in the US or any other country should be punished by sexually abusing them??
you are sick and disgusting and your opinion is not valued by anyone

Reply 18

randdom

Yogafan

So then by you definition it would be ok for you to be abused in this matter if you we held as a prisoner of war or if britain was invaded and you were arrested that would be ok because it would be your punishment and that is what happend in war.

Maybe they did commit a crime and if they did then yes they should be punished. But their punishment is being put in prison not being tortured and sexually abused.

Reply 19

Outrageous

vienna95

im not claiming the article does not exist, im claiming the allegations made have not be substantiated and only deemed so, by Palestine Monitor and Islam Online..hardly impartial sources on the matter. im not claiming whether they are factual or not, you are. you should at least take the value of such reports at their value, particuarly in regard to an objective debate.

but which origin is that?

indeed, strange.

it was not clear because it was not suggested. i made a comment relating to your appropriation of certain journalism into an argument without considering the value of that source.

i think youre very much aware of the gains to be made by claiming rape is a systematic torture method of the Israelis.

you did it again. taking the allegations as being factual in an argument that seeks to assess the value of such.

in Palestine Monitor? or Islam Online? no.

You are refusing to take into consideration that any allegations made against the american or israeli administration can ever be true. And you failed to answer what constitutes a substantiated article in your view. Abu Ghraib also came under fire when it was revealed that some of the pictures were fake. Do you even believe that this happened at Abu Ghraib?

No because apparently in your mind all arabs/muslims must be liars automatically and the audacity to even suggest that this is just a trend. Its strange becasue there is no trend. These are in fact taking place.How many and when I could not say.

As you probably know proving rape is not really easy. Now had you bothered to even look through some of my links rather than just stating the obvious, their names in order to to refute these rapes, then you would have found the Scotsman link actually talks about specific cases and where the israeli abuser's own compadres are revealing that yes indeed they witnessed his abuse of prisoners. I am sure you think he is lying too.

You ask for objectivity yet you fail to even remotely demonstrate that. Israel and America's governements are infallible in your mind. I am sure you believe the Bin Laden was naturally the culprit behind 9/11 because the media says so and because the US admin says so. No objectivity and no regard to the very strange aspects of the 9/11 which basically leaves the case open as to who was the culprit apart from the muslim/arab hijackers. Who was really pulling the strings. So really you are no position to demand objectivity when you yourself are completely biased towards the israeli and US government. Although the US is close to my heart, I have lost faith in the government.

To me there are the terrorists of the Arab world ad then you have the US terrorist too which is basically the US admin. Sexual abuse in prisons is happening. And With rape being able to prove and thus substantiate its pretty grotesk and sick to suggest that every rape victim is lying. What were you expecting? A signed declaration by the rapist? Or did you expect that they would let them walk out of the prison soiled in semen and bruises? Hardly. Then it would not be funny anymore to abuse.

And every claim against the Israeli prison or government does not mean this anti Jewish or Anti israeli propaganda. Do try to practice what you preach and stay openminded and objective.

Having dealt with rapes globally I know how difficult it is. And Unfortuantely it is happening. And this saint image you have of the two governments is really not helping the case. I provided the authors names. You could contact them. Its not really they rape victims fault if the majority of media refuses to air something incriminating the government. To just shrug it off as being a pack of liars is absurd. I can not help but wonder, if this was your best friend confiding in your she had been raped, what would you say? Well dear your claim is not substantiated and come on I really don't buy a soldier raped you. Stop making up tales? Wonderful.

I don't think you want to believe this at all. And you are too biased in your opinions to even consider this. Its not exactly easy for women or men to admit they were raped. And there are not million dollars law suits going on here so don't give me that nonsense that the gain is to hurt israel. Israel's prison watchers should perhaps try to not rape and molest prisoners. And I am sure the american soldiers are not just plain racists but took their lead from what has been going on in Israeli prisons for years.

If you don't believe this then at the end of the day the only thing you can do is to go to israel and questions these victims or hey put them through lie detector test. Ultimately with your reasoning or lack of, women being raped are just liars. Becaue I don't know many rape victims who can walk into a court and actually prove it. Usually they are treated as the criminals being subjected to one hearing after the other and people tearing into their character and portraying them as promiscious girls who just make life hell for nice citizens, the rapists that is. That is why the criminal law is now increasingly pushing for amendments which means that it will be the rapist who carries the main evidence burden and not his victim.

I do hope you never ever have to go through rape. And I do hope nobody ever looks to you for support if being raped. I hope you never have to feel that humilated and that weak. For a woman I find your remarks brutally cold and void of any feeling what so ever. You compare rape to martians. if thats not mocking then I don't know what is. In light of the sensitivity of the case, you could have articulated yourself differently. So no I don't really think you take rape seriously especially not if the rapist is from the US or israel or even britain. Because as we know some people are just infallible and when US soldiers raped and looted and murdered girls and women during the vietnam war I am sure these vietnamese too were just making up allegations. But of course. How logical. How objective. How careless of these rape victims not to have asked for a copy of the taken photos and photage from their rapists. Surely a souvenier would have been in order.