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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    I would be very surprised if you were captured and subjected to "torture" such as wearing women's underwear on your head and being walked around like a dog on a leash. You would be subjected to far worse than that.
    The point is that to the Muslims being treated in this way there was very little worse than this. Plus, how can you belittle what was done to them?! Attacked with dogs? Wires attached to them and they're told they'll be electrocuted if they move? This is horrific. Not to mention the reports of the women who were raped and in many cases made pregnant by US soldiers.

    The argument 'they'd do worse' does not hold water at the best of times, but especially not when America and Britain are supposedly being the 'policemen' of the world.
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    (Original post by MadNatSci)
    The point is that to the Muslims being treated in this way there was very little worse than this.
    although polls showed that the Iraqis werent moved by it.

    in many cases made pregnant by US soldiers.
    can i see your source for this? or indeed for any rape at Abu Ghraib.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    although polls showed that the Iraqis werent moved by it.

    can i see your source for this? or indeed for any rape at Abu Ghraib.

    Surely the fact that there is a peception that this is what was happening at Abu Ghraib increases th seriousness of the whole situation and increases the damage that it is having on the coalitions attempts at pacifying the insurgents.

    as for the rape

    http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0421/mondo2.php
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    Outrageous wrote a lot.
    First of all, these accusations could be true or not, however given the record of Islamic media in the region, taken into account the fact that media in the palestinian areas are heavily surpressed , and adding onto this that the source surely had heavily biased political opinions makes the article at best doubtful. During operation defensive shield it was claimed that 1000 palestinians died in a massacre. The UN conclusion on the matter was that some 40 people died in crossfires, out of which about one third were Israeli soldiers, and the majority of the rest were militants. As for Israeli jailes Amnesty are given full access to them and still there is few reports stating any sort of abuse similar to that in Iraq ( check http://www.amnesty.org ). The facts are that Israelis and Palestinians are constantly accusing each other of crimes and violations, regardless if it is true or not. Now, if you are going to take the contents of that article for granted, then you should also do so when it comes to the contents of http://www.jerusalempost.com and http://www.haaretz.com . In Iraq the situation is far more serious because there is extensive evidence and confessions sugesting that violations has occured after orders from high levels of command.
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    Surely the fact that there is a peception that this is what was happening at Abu Ghraib increases th seriousness of the whole situation and increases the damage that it is having on the coalitions attempts at pacifying the insurgents.
    its not 'positive' but it did not have a significant effect on the opinions of the Iraqi public.

    interesting source. It claims,

    "The Taguba report confirms that some women were indeed raped by American G.I.'s"

    which if you actually read the report( http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm) , says no such thing.
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    I first read about the abuse of women in an article in the independent... can't find a link to it, at least not one that doesn't require subscription anyway so much as I hate doing this you'll have to take my word for it. However these links might keep you going for a bit:

    http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=9597&TagID=1 (this is actually pretty much exactly the contents of the Independent article anyway)

    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/06/293617.html (OK, it's hardly objective, but no reporting is, really)

    http://www.1924.org/comment/index.php?id=1267_0_13_0_M

    It doesn't require a massive leap of faith (far from it) for me to believe this, given the evidence of abuse that we've already seen. Or do you disbelieve that evidence? You surely can't be supporting this abuse?! Come on vienna, there are surely some things the right and left wings CAN agree on?!
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    (Original post by vienna95)

    "The Taguba report confirms that some women were indeed raped by American G.I.'s"

    which if you actually read the report( http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm) , says no such thing.
    Actually....

    "REGARDING PART ONE OF THE INVESTIGATION, I MAKE THE FOLLOWING SPECIFIC FINDINGS OF FACT:

    ....

    6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

    ....

    k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;"


    Of course I guess you could argue that it was consensual. Yerss.
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    What do people think, should someone high up in the Bush Administration have resigned for what occured, Rumsfeld for example, in order to demonstrate that they were not underplaying the seriousness of what went on?

    It seems to me that they are trying to push responsibility down as far as possible in order to save face during an election year.
    No matter how much they try, the U.S. government cannot control the middle east, much less the whole world. What was the administration supposed to do? It's one prison. People are just gripeing about Abu Gahrib because they don't have anything better to complain about at the moment.
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    (Original post by moncal)
    It's one prison. People are just gripeing about Abu Gahrib because they don't have anything better to complain about at the moment.

    People are 'gripeing' about Abu Ghraib because images of terrible abuse were broadcast around the world and they were being adminstered by those claiming to be liberating the people from brutality...
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    People are 'gripeing' about Abu Ghraib because images of terrible abuse were broadcast around the world and they were being adminstered by those claiming to be liberating the people from brutality...
    Think about it, stuff like this is frontpage news until something else happens and then it is all but forgotten except for some oddly related 6th spot story about somebody being asked to resign.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    interesting source. It claims,

    "The Taguba report confirms that some women were indeed raped by American G.I.'s"

    which if you actually read the report( http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm) , says no such thing.
    One part of the report says,

    6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

    a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

    b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

    c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

    d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

    e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

    f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

    g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

    h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

    i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

    j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

    k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
    l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

    m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

    You will see I have highlighted k. and whilst this claims that they were having sex you have to question how often a female muslim detainee would permissively have sex with an American GI. Perhaps the wording is such that it is attemptng to prevent the outtrage that would come from such a claim, withstanding this surely the rest of the findings (made by an American officer at the request of the American government) are tantamount to severe sexualt assault and abuse.


    and theres more.....

    8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

    a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

    b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

    c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

    d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

    e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

    f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

    g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

    h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
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    (Original post by moncal)
    No matter how much they try, the U.S. government cannot control the middle east, much less the whole world. What was the administration supposed to do? It's one prison. People are just gripeing about Abu Gahrib because they don't have anything better to complain about at the moment.
    They could gripe about the beheading of Kim Sun-il. I have a feeling that the media will cover his beheading for one day and then go back to rehashing stories on Abu Gahrib again
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    (Original post by moncal)
    Think about it, stuff like this is frontpage news until something else happens and then it is all but forgotten except for some oddly related 6th spot story about somebody being asked to resign.

    Of course, however severe a crime eventually the news will change onto something new or else the Nurembourg trials would still begin the headlines. The Richard Dutroux trial in Brussels is not even headline news a the moment and he has been found guilty of raping and murdering young girls....perhaps your point is that the media feels that they will sell more newspapers by moving from story to story quickly and without giving adequate coverage to the more important stories?
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    They could gripe about the beheading of Kim Sun-il. I have a feeling that the media will cover his beheading for one day and then go back to rehashing stories on Abu Gahrib again
    I'm sitting here wondering why there isn't such a thread already.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    They could gripe about the beheading of Kim Sun-il. I have a feeling that the media will cover his beheading for one day and then go back to rehashing stories on Abu Gahrib again

    Perhaps because 99 per cent of the world sees the people who are purportrating these acts as being barbaric severley misguided and evil andso sadly this type of thing has become commonplace....on the whole we thought the American miltary or 'liberators' were above such behaviour
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    Of course, however severe a crime eventually the news will change onto something new or else the Nurembourg trials would still begin the headlines. The Richard Dutroux trial in Brussels is not even headline news a the moment and he has been found guilty of raping and murdering young girls....perhaps your point is that the media feels that they will sell more newspapers by moving from story to story quickly and without giving adequate coverage to the more important stories?
    Media isn't about depth of coverage. Media is "we got it first and we gave more names than you saw anywhere else p.s. don't tell anyone but we would rather screw somebody than give you the whole story."
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    They could gripe about the beheading of Kim Sun-il. I have a feeling that the media will cover his beheading for one day and then go back to rehashing stories on Abu Gahrib again

    Without wanting to go too far off topic it's probably worth pointing out that this guy wouldnt have had his head chopped off if the Americans hadnt invaded Iraq!!!!

    Of course this is a terrible act but this is what you expect from fundamentalist loonies who believe that the greatest honour is to become a martyr and kill coalition troops. Degrading treatment, Sexual assault, Physical abuse and Mental torment are not however what we expect from American/and or coalition troops
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    (Original post by moncal)
    Media isn't about depth of coverage. Media is "we got it first and we gave more names than you saw anywhere else p.s. don't tell anyone but we would rather screw somebody than give you the whole story."
    so whats your point??
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    Without wanting to go too far off topic it's probably worth pointing out that this guy wouldnt have had his head chopped off if the Americans hadnt invaded Iraq!!!!
    I don't remember our single minded media ever mentioning anything about the U.S. All I heard was that they wanted south Korea to pull out. South Korea is an independent country. We don't make their decisions for them.
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    (Original post by Cossack)
    Perhaps because 99 per cent of the world sees the people who are purportrating these acts as being barbaric severley misguided and evil andso sadly this type of thing has become commonplace....on the whole we thought the American miltary or 'liberators' were above such behaviour
    They are above that behavior. We had 15-16 soldiers behaving in an inappropriate manner, but this does not make all of the American soldiers barbaric, as you seem to be implying. Remember, we have about 140,000 troops there.

    The matter is being investigated and I can assure you that those that are responsible for this will be punished.
 
 
 
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