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communism watch

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    (Original post by polthegael)
    America is a mixed system. Do yoyu mean it was prepared to take the uncapatilist step of imposing massive import duties in the 30s, and even now against EU steel to prop up its screwed-up economy?

    If so, it is the very pinacle of capitalism - f*ck evryone over, just so long as you are ok... Imperialism doesn't work... Period...

    Roll on the inclusive worldwide state!
    Granted that the US has done many despicable things a large proportion of teh world and a substancial part of the planets population can thank that country for the fact that they do not live under a totalitarian system based on torture and surpression. How long could Britain have retained its democracy had it not been for the fact it was guarded from Hitler's Nazi's and Stalin's Sovjet?

    The US is not Imeprialistic it has supported friendly governments rather than taking controll of teh areas it has invaded. Sovjet occupied eastern Europe, the US left the West to blossom under its own rule. The same has happened in Japan, South Korea and soon also in Iraq.
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    Who were all generally away with the fairies. You had your Lincolnesque dude (Gustav III, I think) who probably viewed his death as a strange twist in a fantasy tale...

    I trust a load of English people would say that "imperialist, us, never!", but history tells us a different story.

    You may be a nice people now, but you had an empire until 1906...

    I have lots of Norwegian friends and can give drunken renditions of the first couple of verses of "Ja vi elsker dette landet"!
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    Why?

    Bush is an evil man of monumentous proportions! The actions of the US in Iraq, Afganistan, Cuba (and that's all still going on under the media spotlight) as well as myriad other things, all show them to be in many ways as bad as Hitler&Stalin...

    So what if they don't use force to take places over (usually), sending in the Green Berets would probably be better in the long run than sending in the crack commandos of McDonald's and CocaCola...

    It's all imperialism, just a financial variant!
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    (Original post by kingslaw)
    How have you come to the conclusion that communism 'concentrates ultimate power in the hands of a few who decide what everyone else does'? Have you ever read either Marx, or the work of modern Marxists? The principle aim of Marxism is putting the economy in the hands of the people so what they need is produced, rather than merely what the wealthy want is produced. This is democratic handling of the economy. If anything, the structure of a capitalist society like our own concentrates power in the hands of a minority. Those who own masses of wealth have by far more power than what we have. You can't seriously tell me that you have as much influence on Blair or Bush as Rupert Murdoch! Regardless of who we vote into power, these very rich and powerful people have to be satisfied (sometimes through the dedication of $billions to producing and deploying devestating weapons so we can secure foreign markets for our firms - think about all the good that could be done with those billions). This is almost always at the expense of what the rest of the world require.

    Furthermore, I dont know about what happens in your middle-class utopia, but we do not have the freedom to starve or the freedom to succeed. You appear to look at the world in a very black and white fashion (some of what you have said sounds like it has been cut and paste straight out of my A-level politics textbook) but there are a great many of other factors which determine how succesful we are in life. Using your analysis, the reason most children born into working-class families remain in the class they were born is because they simply arent as clever as the children of middle-class families. This is obviously absurd. There are a great variety of other determinints in whether we reach our potential than simply talent. Children born into poorer backgrounds who do not get the chance to go to a private school, or dont grow up in a good evironment are naturally going to have to work much harder than a child who's mummy and daddy pay for them to go to a posh school and lives in an area much less affected by crime and poverty. This doesnt sound like any sort of freedom for the child from a poorer background. This is why (greater) social equality is a key for delivering social justice - this is something capitalism can not provide.

    I wont even bother extending your theory of equal opportunities and freedom to the factory workers of the Far East, the peasant farmers of Latin America, and the starving millions in Africa - all of whom work within economies under strict regulation by the IMF and World Bank.



    Yes, Stalinism was/is a terrible historical scar, but if we could get back to the topic of communism...simple as that.
    Firstly, I conclude that Communism concentrates power in the few because establishing a communist system would be an enormous operation, all capitalist insturments and organisations would need to be dismanteled, it could not be done without some grand architect, to deny this you would have to be mad! Yes, I have read Marx, I have a huge text book including all his major works and have attended lecturers on his thoughts by numerous political theorist doctors and professors. The whole theory is the biggest load of tripe I've ever had the misfortune to hear.

    If you want to put the economy in the hands of the people, the best way to do this is surely to allow them to spend money so that it is clear what goods and services they need/want, that way the economy can satisfy the needs of the people, this is a capitalist system. You used the analogy of "democracy" so so will I. If people use money and can allocate their spending very much like a vote, that way the economy is responsive to the needs of the people. I can understand why you think capitalism concentrates power in the hands of the few but this isn't true. Those who appear to have most of the power must surely be very responsive to the "needs" of people in a democratic way or they would have no money and wouldnt operate! Whats democratic about it is that they MUST aim to satisfy the needs of as many people as possible to be market leaders!

    Secondly, I don't live in a "middle class utopia" the idea of utopia is a left wing notion to fool the gullible into supporting them, the right wing don't dangle these false dreams in front of peoples eyes. Sorry if what I have said sounds text book-like, pure coincidence I assure you. Although I would direct your attention to "Economics" 10th edition by Lipsey and Chrystal, on the third page I think it says quite simply "Adam Smith was right and Karl Marx was wrong" and a full explanation of why, I think you probably need to read that more than anyone!

    As for my black/ white outlook, well. The huge growth of the middle class over the past century shows people can do as well for themselves as their determination and hard work lift them out of the working class if they pull their finger out. I wasn't blessed with great intelligence but I got a place at the 3rd best uni in the country cos of hard work and determination, i didnt go to private school, just a bog standard comp. If you're working class and moan about your lot a "self fulfilling prophecy" will surely occur, whereby you think you can't escape it, therefore you don't try to, so you don't.

    Your example of Stalin is typical of every communist I have ever met, whenever I give an example of a communist system where people have lived in total poverty, been abused by an oligarchic government and died due to disease and squallor, etc etc (the examples are abundant) the response is always the same "aah well, thats not proper communism" well I say if the examples that exist are very weakly based on the theory, imagine how bad living in real application of the theory must be!
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    Where's that? I'm off to Cambridge, which I assume you consider number 2...
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    (Original post by polthegael)
    Where's that? I'm off to Cambridge, which I assume you consider number 2...
    LSE. And your assumption is correct. I expect Imperial students to write and say "well actually........" but there's NO WAY Imperial are a better uni than us!
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    (Original post by Greyhound01)
    Secondly, I don't live in a "middle class utopia" the idea of utopia is a left wing notion to fool the gullible into supporting them, the right wing don't dangle these false dreams in front of peoples eyes. Sorry if what I have said sounds text book-like, pure coincidence I assure you. Although I would direct your attention to "Economics" 10th edition by Lipsey and Chrystal, on the third page I think it says quite simply "Adam Smith was right and Karl Marx was wrong" and a full explanation of why, I think you probably need to read that more than anyone!
    Out of interest could you describe this "middle class utiopia" that the left suposedly want to create. I would certainly assess myself to be left leaning socially and I do not have an idea about what you mean. If you could explain this I would be most grateful.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    The US is not Imeprialistic it has supported friendly governments rather than taking controll of teh areas it has invaded. Sovjet occupied eastern Europe, the US left the West to blossom under its own rule. The same has happened in Japan, South Korea and soon also in Iraq.
    "friendly governments?" are we taking friendly in term of human rights here? If so pinochett? Diem?
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    (Original post by ivan)
    what do you think of communism?
    Perfect in theory...never works in practice..due to the corruption...
    makes good the saying 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'...
 
 
 
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