Welsh students - are we really not getting postgraduate funding?

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gattolampone
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#1
Report Thread starter 6 years ago
#1
Hello everyone, I am just wondering if there are any other Welsh students out there who want to do a MA, and have realised that every other student in the UK can apply for a postgraduate loan apart from themselves?

I have just graduated from Warwick in French and Italian and hope to start a course in Translation and Conference Interpreting (ideally at Leeds) in 2016/17. I have taken a sabbatical in the mean time.

I was really happy when I found out about the loans, but I have suddenly realised that education is a devolved matter and that the loans are only available for English students. The Scottish government has put something similar in place and Northern Ireland apparently are considering it, but nothing from Wales.

Has anyone else hit this problem and can we do anything about it?! I have lived in England for the past 4 years (including a study abroad year). I just feel this is so unfair and that in 6 months I can't possibly make all the money to pay for a course that costs 8 grand and support myself!!

I'm getting my information here: http://www.findamasters.com/funding/...ns-scheme.aspx and here: http://www.studentfinancewales.co.uk...x#.Vog4McCLR-U
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troubadour.
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#2
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#2
(Original post by gattolampone)
I was really happy when I found out about the loans, but I have suddenly realised that education is a devolved matter and that the loans are only available for English students.
Not entirely helpful, but didn't you realise this when you realised that you were only paying a third of the standard £9 000/year tuition fees (assuming you didn't start before the change, in which case you would've noticed that you were getting free tuition)?
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Jantaculum
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#3
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#3
(Original post by gattolampone)
I just feel this is so unfair and that in 6 months I can't possibly make all the money to pay for a course that costs 8 grand and support myself!!
What Hydeman said - sorry but you're probably not going to get too much sympathy from English students, your Parliament has already generously subsidised your education.

(or any students that have self-funded Masters study in the last ten years or so )

Practical suggestions would be to look for part-time courses and work at the same time, or to work for a few years before taking a year to go back to study - these are both very common routes - or to take out a commercial Career Development Loan but read the small print very carefully first.
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spacepirate-James
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#4
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#4
(Original post by gattolampone)
The Scottish government has put something similar in place and Northern Ireland apparently are considering it, but nothing from Wales.
Have they? Do you have any links? Scottish student here and I didn't think we were getting anything similar!
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Sarah Dunkley
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#5
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#5
Yep I'm currently panicking myself. I'm in Bangor Uni but from South Wales and in my 4th year doing French and Italian. There's no way at the moment. As regards for someone passing no sympathy from english students... yes we paid less for undergrad but student finance helped both english and welsh out. Now for masters only helping english. You see where I'm coming from? It's a bit hard pulling 10-12k from my ass.
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sj27
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#6
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#6
(Original post by Jantaculum)
What Hydeman said - sorry but you're probably not going to get too much sympathy from...
(or any students that have self-funded Masters study in the last ten years or so )

Practical suggestions would be to look for part-time courses and work at the same time, or to work for a few years before taking a year to go back to study - these are both very common routes - or to take out a commercial Career Development Loan but read the small print very carefully first.
This post, slightly edited, apparently bears repeating.
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Saoirse:3
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#7
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#7
Since it's a devolved matter you should take it up with your local Welsh Assembly member and ask what they plan to do about the situation. On the bright side you can always do your postgrad later on, and if you go on to earn a decent wage you'll pay back tens of thousands of pounds less than English students I.E. even if you have to save and pay for a Masters out of your own pocket you'll still be better off in the long run.
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Juichiro
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#8
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#8
(Original post by gattolampone)
Hello everyone, I am just wondering if there are any other Welsh students out there who want to do a MA, and have realised that every other student in the UK can apply for a postgraduate loan apart from themselves?

I have just graduated from Warwick in French and Italian and hope to start a course in Translation and Conference Interpreting (ideally at Leeds) in 2016/17. I have taken a sabbatical in the mean time.

I was really happy when I found out about the loans, but I have suddenly realised that education is a devolved matter and that the loans are only available for English students. The Scottish government has put something similar in place and Northern Ireland apparently are considering it, but nothing from Wales.

Has anyone else hit this problem and can we do anything about it?! I have lived in England for the past 4 years (including a study abroad year). I just feel this is so unfair and that in 6 months I can't possibly make all the money to pay for a course that costs 8 grand and support myself!!

I'm getting my information here: http://www.findamasters.com/funding/...ns-scheme.aspx and here: http://www.studentfinancewales.co.uk...x#.Vog4McCLR-U
(Original post by Sarah Dunkley)
Yep I'm currently panicking myself. I'm in Bangor Uni but from South Wales and in my 4th year doing French and Italian. There's no way at the moment. As regards for someone passing no sympathy from english students... yes we paid less for undergrad but student finance helped both english and welsh out. Now for masters only helping english. You see where I'm coming from? It's a bit hard pulling 10-12k from my ass.
If you have lived in England for more than 3 years you might be considered an "English student". Also, I believe that the bold bit is factually false. It is my understanding that, just like the undergrad loans, the postgrad loans are available for all EU students. Unless they plan to violate EU laws, they are, by law, forced to treat EU students equally. There have been a few court cases when this did not happen. Since, Wales does not have an equivalent and you have been living in England for a while, it is worth a try.
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Saoirse:3
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Juichiro)
If you have lived in England for more than 3 years you might be considered an "English student". Also, I believe that the bold bit is factually false. It is my understanding that, just like the undergrad loans, the postgrad loans are available for all EU students. Unless they plan to violate EU laws, they are, by law, forced to treat EU students equally. There have been a few court cases when this did not happen. Since, Wales does not have an equivalent and you have been living in England for a while, it is worth a try.
The rules exclude those who have been resident in England purely for the purposes of studying. In effect, you'd need to stay and live in England for three years after graduation before you'd become eligible for an English postgraduate loan.
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Juichiro
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Saoirse:3)
1.The rules exclude those who have been resident in England purely for the purposes of studying. In effect, 2.you'd need to stay and live in England for three years after graduation before you'd become eligible for an English postgraduate loan.
1. The studying refers to "studying for a Masters" not studying for an undergrad.
2. Factually false. " This must have most recently been resident in England and borrowers must not have moved there from elsewhere in the UK and Islands solely for the purposes of attending the course" where "course" refers to the postgraduate course. There is no mention of previously moving to England for your undergrad. There is another piece of text that supports this interpretation: "The new postgraduate Master’s loan is not intended to be available to individuals who plan or have moved to England from one of the other nations for the purpose of undertaking the Master’s course".

Based on points 1 and 2, gattolampone would be eligible for a loan as a person ordinarily resident in the UK (unless OP can't prove evidence of continuous residence in England for the last 3 years).

(Original post by gattolampone)
x
See above.
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jelly1000
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Juichiro)
If you have lived in England for more than 3 years you might be considered an "English student". Also, I believe that the bold bit is factually false. It is my understanding that, just like the undergrad loans, the postgrad loans are available for all EU students. Unless they plan to violate EU laws, they are, by law, forced to treat EU students equally. There have been a few court cases when this did not happen. Since, Wales does not have an equivalent and you have been living in England for a while, it is worth a try.
SAAS & Scottish unis dont
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Juichiro
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#12
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#12
(Original post by jelly1000)
SAAS & Scottish unis dont
Oh, I see. I wonder how they are able to get around EU law but English and Welsh unis are not.
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Nolofinwë
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#13
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#13
(Original post by Juichiro)
If you have lived in England for more than 3 years you might be considered an "English student". Also, I believe that the bold bit is factually false. It is my understanding that, just like the undergrad loans, the postgrad loans are available for all EU students. Unless they plan to violate EU laws, they are, by law, forced to treat EU students equally. There have been a few court cases when this did not happen. Since, Wales does not have an equivalent and you have been living in England for a while, it is worth a try.
(Original post by Juichiro)
Oh, I see. I wonder how they are able to get around EU law but English and Welsh unis are not.
(Original post by jelly1000)
SAAS & Scottish unis dont
The Scottish tuition fees disparity for students from other parts of the UK, if I understand it correctly, is a bit of a quirk of applying EU free movement law. Contrary to popular perceptions, the scope of EU law is quite limited. As far as I know, it has no general or special competence relating to education - that remains for member states. Instead, the EU law obligation arose from cases in the 80s and 90s concerning Belgian tuition fee and student grant provisions. 'Free movement of persons' is a fundamental rule of EU law, being at its core that citizens of the Union should be freely able to travel to and work in any member state. Encompassed within the ability to work is the ability to get appropriate training in the member state of one's choice. Therefore, the EU court said that having different provisions relating to university courses for national students to students of other member states (e.g. imposing higher fees, or denying access to grants) was a barrier to free movement of persons (because courses were more expensive/funding less readily available etc.), and so not allowed under EU law. Therefore, any student wishing to study at, e.g., Edinburgh, must be able to do so on the most favourable terms as are enjoyed by (some) nationals regardless of whether they are a national of the UK or from anywhere else in the Union.

However, because EU law can only regulate cross-border movement, it has no power to regulate barriers which are internal to the member state, e.g., between persons domiciled in different regions. Since our state is defined as the UK, there is no national border separating England, Wales, NI and Scotland. Therefore, EU law cannot be used to argue that different terms/fees are a barrier to free movement, because there is no transnational border over which movement is hindered. The matter is purely internal, and the EU law which has been used to regulate tuition fees has no power to prevent internal discrimination. While EU law has separate controls on discrimination, I don't think they recognise one on the basis of region of domicile, and anyway the matter is beyond the scope of EU law, so it cannot apply.
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Juichiro
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Nolofinwë)
The Scottish tuition fees disparity for students from other parts of the UK, if I understand it correctly, is a bit of a quirk of applying EU free movement law. 1.Contrary to popular perceptions, the scope of EU law is quite limited.As far as I know, it has no general or special competence relating to education - that remains for member states . Instead, the EU law obligation arose from cases in the 80s and 90s concerning Belgian tuition fee and student grant provisions. 'Free movement of persons' is a fundamental rule of EU law, being at its core that citizens of the Union should be freely able to travel to and work in any member state. Encompassed within the ability to work is the ability to get appropriate training in the member state of one's choice. Therefore, the EU court said that having different provisions relating to university courses for national students to students of other member states (e.g. imposing higher fees, or denying access to grants) was a barrier to free movement of persons (because courses were more expensive/funding less readily available etc.), and so not allowed under EU law. Therefore, any student wishing to study at, e.g., Edinburgh, must be able to do so on the most favourable terms as are enjoyed by (some) nationals regardless of whether they are a national of the UK or from anywhere else in the Union.

However, because EU law can only regulate cross-border movement, it has no power to regulate barriers which are internal to the member state, e.g., between persons domiciled in different regions. Since our state is defined as the UK, there is no national border separating England, Wales, NI and Scotland. Therefore, EU law cannot be used to argue that different terms/fees are a barrier to free movement, because there is no transnational border over which movement is hindered. The matter is purely internal, and the EU law which has been used to regulate tuition fees has no power to prevent internal discrimination. While EU law has separate controls on discrimination, I don't think they recognise one on the basis of region of domicile, and anyway the matter is beyond the scope of EU law, so it cannot apply.
1. I believe it does. EU law forces EU countries to make student finance available to students from other EU countries. However, you have pointed out something I missed (Since our state is defined as the UK, there is no national border separating England, Wales, NI and Scotland. Therefore, EU law cannot be used to argue that different terms/fees are a barrier to free movement, because there is no transnational border over which movement is hindered).
Nevertheless, I still believe OP could try and see if his time in England counts for SFE. Alternatively, he could study in Germany (which is free) and living costs are cheap.
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Nolofinwë
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Juichiro)
1. I believe it does. EU law forces EU countries to make student finance available to students from other EU countries. However, you have pointed out something I missed (Since our state is defined as the UK, there is no national border separating England, Wales, NI and Scotland. Therefore, EU law cannot be used to argue that different terms/fees are a barrier to free movement, because there is no transnational border over which movement is hindered).
Nevertheless, I still believe OP could try and see if his time in England counts for SFE. Alternatively, he could study in Germany (which is free) and living costs are cheap.
You're quite right - shows that it always pays to read article 6. I find its inclusion as a competence odd in light of the Bundesverfassungsgerich's comments in Lisbon on the identity lock, but I can sort of see that it might be more a competence in theory than in practice since it is only complimentary. I amend my point to say that, 'even though the EU has a (theoretical) competence to supplement member state provision for education, I don't believe that any measure enacted under such competence is in effect in this case'.

You're also quite correct to say that other pathways may be open. My only purpose was to explain the Scottish tuition fees situation, and how this might be replicated with the new English loans system.
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Oilfreak1
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#16
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#16
Hey guys,
I just received an e-mail from Imperial where i'm applying for an MSc and it included this:

Following the announcement last week I am pleased to let you know that if you are a Home or EU student you can borrow up to £10,000 from the UK government's Postgraduate Master's Loan scheme. The loan is not means-tested so, it doesn't matter what your household income is. More information can be found at Postgraduate Master's Loan scheme

So it looks like welsh students will also be eligible for the loan - according to imperial anyway.
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Juichiro
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Oilfreak1)
Hey guys,
I just received an e-mail from Imperial where i'm applying for an MSc and it included this:

Following the announcement last week I am pleased to let you know that if you are a Home or EU student you can borrow up to £10,000 from the UK government's Postgraduate Master's Loan scheme. The loan is not means-tested so, it doesn't matter what your household income is. More information can be found at Postgraduate Master's Loan scheme

So it looks like welsh students will also be eligible for the loan - according to imperial anyway.
I think that is an automated email sent to everyone who sign to a uni's postgrad loan info mail list. I would send an email to Imperial to confirm.
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Oilfreak1
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Juichiro)
I think that is an automated email sent to everyone who sign to a uni's postgrad loan info mail list. I would send an email to Imperial to confirm.
I'm not welsh so don't really care lol. I haven't signed up for anything but it is most likely automated, the aim of my post was to point out that as far as imperial is concerned these loans will be available to all home and EU students (welsh students included). They don't have any authority over who does and doesn't get the loan but they must have gotten "Home and EU" from somewhere.
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