Why is the Middle East in such a mess? (Relatively speaking)

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username1539513
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#1
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#1
Can someone please explain the Arab Spring to me and when it all kicked off? It seems very long and complicated and I would prefer someone with historical knowledge about the Middle East to explain it all.
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MatureStudent36
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Some would argue that increasing food prices at the time was the touch paper that started off a lot of general unhappiness with the existing status quo.

Other factors impacting on the Middle East are a massive boom in population (especially young) poverty, ignorance and limited infrastructure.

As regimes fell, in some cases good things happened, in others religious nutters took advantage of the situation.

Syria was part of the Arab Spring but Assad and his allies used extreme force to suppress rebellion.
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uberteknik
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#3
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#3
The history is long and complicated and goes back centuries, covering: religious ideologies, geopolitics, world wars, tribalism, global economics, the explosive rise of communications technology, access to information and oil wealth.

How long have have you got?
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Nephthys
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#4
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#4
U.S. foreign policy messed it up again
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Fullofsurprises
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#5
Not clear that the Arab Spring is the same thing as the "such a mess" that your title claims the Middle East is in. For a lot of people, the Arab Spring was a hopeful sign that ordinary people in the Arab world were getting increasingly impatient and angry with the corrupt dictatorships that run many of those countries and were standing up against them. At least, that was definitely the case in Tunisia where it all started.

The real question to ask is why cruel dictatorship is the norm in the Arab countries. This has an interesting history, but it is at least partly (and probably mainly) the result of European and US meddling in the affairs of those countries over the century that followed the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which used to rule much of the area. The dictators were 'good' for some interests in western countries (such as big oil companies and wealthy shareholders) but generally pretty bad for both their countries and people. What we now see is largely the mess left by that.
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username1539513
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#6
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#6
(Original post by uberteknik)
The history is long and complicated and goes back centuries, covering: religious ideologies, geopolitics, world wars, tribalism, global economics, the explosive rise of communications technology, access to information and oil wealth.

How long have have you got?
I have all night; please feel free to explain everything I would like to know everything I just want a complete understanding
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Gears265
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#7
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#7
White male privilege, the illuminati, zionists, UKIP, Tories, America, the hood, liberal fascists, Chinese communists, the royal family, Donald trump, racism, sexism and European colonisation are all to blame
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Gears265)
White male privilege, the illuminati, zionists, UKIP, Tories, America, the hood, liberal fascists, Chinese communists, the royal family, Donald trump, racism, sexism and European colonisation are all to blame
Have you ever considered not playing to the gallery for a minute with what you think are funny comments (but aren't) and genuinely trying to answer someone's question who doesn't know about the subject? Which you obviously don't either and are trying to cover up your cluelessness perhaps?

If you can't take part seriously, leave the thread.
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username1539513
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#9
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(Original post by Gears265)
White male privilege, the illuminati, zionists, UKIP, Tories, America, the hood, liberal fascists, Chinese communists, the royal family, Donald trump, racism, sexism and European colonisation are all to blame
Seems legit... :rofl:
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Gears265
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#10
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Have you ever considered not playing to the gallery for a minute with what you think are funny comments (but aren't) and genuinely trying to answer someone's question who doesn't know about the subject? Which you obviously don't either and are trying to cover up your cluelessness perhaps?

If you can't take part seriously, leave the thread.
I am only giving the answers that for the last few years TSR has been spewing out. And you wonder why TSR is like it is today?

An honest answer is the fact religion has governmental influence. No country can progress when they let religion dictate economic, social and political policy. The fact governmental parties like the Muslim Brotherhood exist in the 21st century is why the region is like it is.

Religion does not adhere to international politics so they will always be behind the developed countries.
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username1539513
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Not clear that the Arab Spring is the same thing as the "such a mess" that your title claims the Middle East is in. For a lot of people, the Arab Spring was a hopeful sign that ordinary people in the Arab world were getting increasingly impatient and angry with the corrupt dictatorships that run many of those countries and were standing up against them. At least, that was definitely the case in Tunisia where it all started.

The real question to ask is why cruel dictatorship is the norm in the Arab countries. This has an interesting history, but it is at least partly (and probably mainly) the result of European and US meddling in the affairs of those countries over the century that followed the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which used to rule much of the area. The dictators were 'good' for some interests in western countries (such as big oil companies and wealthy shareholders) but generally pretty bad for both their countries and people. What we now see is largely the mess left by that.
I was under the impression that the only reason the US interfered in Syrian politics was to de-stablilise Assad because he was a dictator and that has obviously backfired and now we have ISIS? Was that incorrect?
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Gears265
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#12
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#12
ISIS always existed even before the uprising, they just made use of the lack of stability to forward their agenda. It's all well and good saying America created them but one must wonder if they would have any legitimacy providing the scripture they quote so often did not exist?
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Gears265
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#13
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I will be called racist or whatever for this but a factor is the Sunni-Shia conflict of agendas. It's why countries like Saudia Arabia and Iran have been so divided. They can never achieve true unity if they let these primitive culture clashes stand in their way. Another reason why religion is a major factor. Iran and Saudi Arabia have two different agendas, it is why one supports the Yemen system of governance and the other opposes, it is why one supports Hamas and the other opposes, why one supports Assad and the other opposes, why one is in bed with the USA and the other is in bed with Russia. It is kindergarten politics
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Nephthys
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Gears265)
I will be called racist or whatever for this but a factor is the Sunni-Shia conflict of agendas.
Why would you be called racist for that ?
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al-Shams
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Gears265)
White male privilege, the illuminati, zionists, UKIP, Tories, America, the hood, liberal fascists, Chinese communists, the royal family, Donald trump, racism, sexism and European colonisation are all to blame
Image

The International Jew

#ArabicReprint
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Gears265
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#16
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#16
(Original post by al-Shams)
Image

The International Jew

#ArabicReprint
Hahaha, that did make me laugh
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Aj12
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Nephthys)
U.S. foreign policy messed it up again
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Not clear that the Arab Spring is the same thing as the "such a mess" that your title claims the Middle East is in. For a lot of people, the Arab Spring was a hopeful sign that ordinary people in the Arab world were getting increasingly impatient and angry with the corrupt dictatorships that run many of those countries and were standing up against them. At least, that was definitely the case in Tunisia where it all started.

The real question to ask is why cruel dictatorship is the norm in the Arab countries. This has an interesting history, but it is at least partly (and probably mainly) the result of European and US meddling in the affairs of those countries over the century that followed the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which used to rule much of the area. The dictators were 'good' for some interests in western countries (such as big oil companies and wealthy shareholders) but generally pretty bad for both their countries and people. What we now see is largely the mess left by that.
I don't really agree that US or foreign actions are the predominate force behind the region's woes, a factor yes, but not the main one. Most of the regions dictators have gone in and out of fashion, they may be removed but often the structures that empower them remain, suggesting a strong domestic power base. No regime can last long purely on the basis of outside support. Outside involvement has often merely played on forces that already existed. Afghanistan under the Soviets is a prime example. The Pakistani's, CIA and others, armed groups that already existed and were fighting fairly well against the Soviets. The role of the Stinger missile against Soviet helicopters has often been over exaggerated. Take also the Iran-Iraq war, Western powers armed Iraq but the impetus behind the war was primarily Saddam. Finally the rise of the Islamic State and the Iraqi civil war that took place after Saddam's fall, the Americans unleashed these forces. But they were completely regional in their origin. Given the oppressive policies launched by Saddam, it is hard to imagine a domestic overthrow of his government ending any differently than the American one did. Assad has shown us just how spectacularly a dictator can create a flaming jihadist uprising.
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Gears265
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Aj12)
I don't really agree that US or foreign actions are the predominate force behind the region's woes, a factor yes, but not the main one. Most of the regions dictators have gone in and out of fashion, they may be removed but often the structures that empower them remain, suggesting a strong domestic power base. No regime can last long purely on the basis of outside support. Outside involvement has often merely played on forces that already existed. Afghanistan under the Soviets is a prime example. The Pakistani's, CIA and others, armed groups that already existed and were fighting fairly well against the Soviets. The role of the Stinger missile against Soviet helicopters has often been over exaggerated. Take also the Iran-Iraq war, Western powers armed Iraq but the impetus behind the war was primarily Saddam. Finally the rise of the Islamic State and the Iraqi civil war that took place after Saddam's fall, the Americans unleashed these forces. But they were completely regional in their origin. Given the oppressive policies launched by Saddam, it is hard to imagine a domestic overthrow of his government ending any differently than the American one did. Assad has shown us just how spectacularly a dictator can create a flaming jihadist uprising.
Every country America/UK has touched in the region has descended into chaos (even if that was going to happen anyway it would not have put massive targets on our backs). You failed to point out the countless times America and the U.K. led to instability in Iran (as we propped up saddam), Yemen (as we prop up Saudi), Syria (as we prop up terrorists, and yes the rebels are terrorists made up of Al Nusra and Islamic front to name some), as we propped up forces who went into Chechnya...the list goes on.

We should just stay out of it and let them burn themselves, at least we don't feed them reasons to attack us. And dictators have a far better record when we leave them too it.
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skunkboy
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#19
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#19
And please ask CIA for details...

Posted from TSR Mobile
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DriverUpdate
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#20
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#20
Arab Spring was the governing of the regions by the Arab peoples by popular vote, meaning when the dictators fell and they got democracy. the 'Arab Spring' was coined by liberal media who predicted a time of peace and new beginnings now that they could vote for a new government. Which is why it sounds like a good thing.

The reason it is in such a mess is because they (Muslims) want to vote in a theocracy based on Islam.

In regions with different denominations of Islam, Sunni/Shia and other sub-denominations, neither will submit to the others rule regardless of what the vote says. Because their brand of Islam is correct and to promote false versions makes you deader than dead, if they don't kill you for it they will go to hell. Or so they believe.

Iraq example;

We stood in and gave Iraq a clean election, the Kurds won I think and they are Shia and the Sunni began a military movement to appose them, joining with their Muslim brothers in the neighbouring Syria who are fighting Assad who is Alawite (a sub denomination of Shia I think) and they created ISIS between them. Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.

hence the mess.

So every side declares a holy war. Jihad.

Every side tries to set up their own country or take over existing ones. They know the only thing that they have in common with one another is their treatment of minority groups.

It's even more complicated than this lol, put simply the problem is Islam. Muslim groups are not stupid enough to be ruled over by another Muslim group, if not out of religious dogmatism then our of self preservation. We have no Muslim allies over there as far as I know and never have had any.
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