Turkey should be in the EU for a stabler world Watch

SaucissonSecCy
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It strikes me that it makes little sense to be concerned over the muslim population of Turkey as regards Eu membership, given that we are seemingly in a compassion competition and will allow as many as possible of the refugees from our foolish wars into Britain, and given that we cannot simply stop the world there and pretend it doesn't exist. To me a link country between the middle east, with a great culture and history, which could become more of a focal point for progressive ideas in islam and muslims in Europe---surely that has to be healthier than simply keeping them out when we let large muslim populations in and bend to them anyhow.
To me, we are far more likely to find peace and integration of Turkey is in as a bridge nation.
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EccentricDiamond
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Absolute rubbish. I do not advocate admitting muslim turkey which is not a European nation into the eu as i believe we should preserve our European culture. Nor will admitting Turkey do **** all for peace in muslim countries
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ravel345
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Another one-worldist drone. You probably don't have the IQ to fight the propaganda that's been drip fed into your brain.
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Tubrug
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Turkey is both culturally, historically and religiously completely different to pretty much all of Europe. Poland, Hungary and other eastern European countries that ascended in 2004 share a common history and culture with other European states. If we're going to allow Turkey to join? Why stop there, Morocco is just across the Mediterranean from Spain right? Perhaps they'd like to join too. Under Erdogan Turkey is also becoming increasingly illiberal and it's getting less secular rather than more so. Again, not really compatible with Europe.

Then there's also the added impact of having nearly 80 million people free to migrate to anywhere in the EU. I imagine we'd see a huge number move to western Europe like we did in 2004 and later years. This time however, the migrants would be much more different to the natives than eastern Europeans are. Then you've also got the fact that migration has already saturated the UK's low-wage labour market (can't speak for France/Germany but I imagine it's similar there).
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ravel345
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It doesn't matter whether Turkey is in the EU, we already have an open border with the middle East, the whole of Africa, and China as well. It's just never been explicitly acknowledged in public.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by EccentricDiamond)
Absolute rubbish. I do not advocate admitting muslim turkey which is not a European nation into the eu as i believe we should preserve our European culture. Nor will admitting Turkey do **** all for peace in muslim countries
But everyone insists on taking muslim refugees ad infinitum anyhow.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Tubrug)
Turkey is both culturally, historically and religiously completely different to pretty much all of Europe. Poland, Hungary and other eastern European countries that ascended in 2004 share a common history and culture with other European states. If we're going to allow Turkey to join? Why stop there, Morocco is just across the Mediterranean from Spain right? Perhaps they'd like to join too. Under Erdogan Turkey is also becoming increasingly illiberal and it's getting less secular rather than more so. Again, not really compatible with Europe.

Then there's also the added impact of having nearly 80 million people free to migrate to anywhere in the EU. I imagine we'd see a huge number move to western Europe like we did in 2004 and later years. This time however, the migrants would be much more different to the natives than eastern Europeans are. Then you've also got the fact that migration has already saturated the UK's low-wage labour market (can't speak for France/Germany but I imagine it's similar there).
Everywhere's different. Eastern Europe was an authoritarian communist hell, shouldn't they not unite with the west? Turkey invented the separation of church and state, they were the ottoman empire. They are a much culturally richer and important country than msot in Eastern Europe. To dismiss them is to succumb to narrow 'presentist' thinking -and it won't make us more secure. Spain actually has territory where you mention. And, though, it's not comparable, as Turkey IS on the European continent, at least half of it, Moroccco isn't. Israel gets to be in the Euro's and Champions league ffs. It isn't geographically Europe- Turkey has bona fide claim to this, and as for having nothing in common with us or being culturally irrelevant, no way because they were part of the Greek civilization which basically created everything we hold dear. As said, I could easily use your argument to emphasise the recent massive East West gulf in Europe, highlight the poverty of those countries, and say they shouldn't come in.

There's an islamaphobic tone I don't like here, Turkey is European territory ad part of European history, like it or not. They have also run a pretty successful economy, moreso than many in south-east Europe, for many years.

And I notice, no-one here is looking at the horrors taking place in Bosnia and Serbia and saying let's not have them in, or even Ukraine, Germany take your pic- there is an ethnic dimension to this I dislike.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by ravel345)
Another one-worldist drone. You probably don't have the IQ to fight the propaganda that's been drip fed into your brain.
Do you have the IQ to fight the propaganda that induces a post-imperial, near comatose state in so many, that tells you Britain is a country whom the worlds destiny hinges upon, not a vassal state massively indebted, still to the US, and run for their interests?
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Good bloke
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
there is an ethnic dimension to this I dislike.
No. It isn't ethnic; it is cultural and religious. To allow the unrestricted mass immigration of people from such an alien culture, with the superstitious beliefs they hold, would be madness.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Good bloke)
No. It isn't ethnic; it is cultural and religious. To allow the unrestricted mass immigration of people from such an alien culture, with the superstitious beliefs they hold, would be madness.
That's rubbish. And there are many forms of islam, you know which they believe in? Catholicism isn't superstition or alien(to a northern European athiest like me)? Institutional child abuse, condoms denied to Africa, fascist sympathising. People bleeding themselves and saying hail marys? Communism isn't alien?
How about Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Eastern Europe? Or circumcision practiced by Jews? There's no ignorant lumping of people into a spurious group going on here? No irrational moral judgements being made in the current political climate?
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Good bloke
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Catholicism isn't superstition
By definition, all religions are superstition - they are all irrational beliefs based on fear of the unknown and characterized by an obsession with ritualistic behaviour and reverence for omen and symbols.

But Catholicism has been exposed to several hundred years of enlightenment in Europe, and its adherents have no expectation or serious hope, these days, that the laws of the land will make significant special concessions to its views. That is not the case with Islam, where large numbers of its adherents, even those living in the west already, hanker after Sharia law and special considerations for their superstitious feelings. neither does Catholicism look down on those who disagree with its beliefs, unlike Islam, which makes special provision for unbelievers.
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KimKallstrom
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
How about Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Eastern Europe? Or circumcision practiced by Jews? There's no ignorant lumping of people into a spurious group going on here? No irrational moral judgements being made in the current political climate?
(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
there is an ethnic dimension to this I dislike.
(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
There's an islamaphobic tone I don't like here.
Pathetic.
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Theophile
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
It strikes me that it makes little sense to be concerned over the muslim population of Turkey as regards Eu membership, given that we are seemingly in a compassion competition and will allow as many as possible of the refugees from our foolish wars into Britain, and given that we cannot simply stop the world there and pretend it doesn't exist. To me a link country between the middle east, with a great culture and history, which could become more of a focal point for progressive ideas in islam and muslims in Europe---surely that has to be healthier than simply keeping them out when we let large muslim populations in and bend to them anyhow.
To me, we are far more likely to find peace and integration of Turkey is in as a bridge nation.
Turkey is not an European country therefoe the question of its EU membership is invalid.
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ravel345
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Do you have the IQ to fight the propaganda that induces a post-imperial, near comatose state in so many, that tells you Britain is a country whom the worlds destiny hinges upon, not a vassal state massively indebted, still to the US, and run for their interests?
Woah, good comeback.
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Das Ich Man
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Do you have the IQ to fight the propaganda that induces a post-imperial, near comatose state in so many, that tells you Britain is a country whom the worlds destiny hinges upon, not a vassal state massively indebted, still to the US, and run for their interests?
Lol so true, our economy, culture and army is so aligned with US interests we're basically a colony.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
It strikes me that it makes little sense to be concerned over the muslim population of Turkey as regards Eu membership, given that we are seemingly in a compassion competition and will allow as many as possible of the refugees from our foolish wars into Britain, and given that we cannot simply stop the world there and pretend it doesn't exist. To me a link country between the middle east, with a great culture and history, which could become more of a focal point for progressive ideas in islam and muslims in Europe---surely that has to be healthier than simply keeping them out when we let large muslim populations in and bend to them anyhow.
To me, we are far more likely to find peace and integration of Turkey is in as a bridge nation.
This is a joke right. The notion that we absorb a Muslim nation into the EU with free movement of Labour is horrid.

That said i have to admit that as a few states like the UK fall away in the coming decades and the Euro-zone becomes a federation, i do think it highly likely that nations like Turkey, Israel, Tunisia and Morocco will be granted membership. A democratic body as expansionist as the Euro-zone core has not been seen in history for some time.
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driftawaay
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Everywhere's different. Eastern Europe was an authoritarian communist hell, shouldn't they not unite with the west?
What are you talking about? That ended in the late eighties and early nineties. Eastern European countries that joined in 2004 were democracies. What next, Germany shouldn't be part of the EU because they used to be fascist? You make no sense.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Das Ich Man)
Lol so true, our economy, culture and army is so aligned with US interests we're basically a colony.
You consider that a bad thing? We spawned them and they became the superpower of the world.
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Das Ich Man
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(Original post by Rakas21)
You consider that a bad thing? We spawned them and they became the superpower of the world.
I absolutely consider it a bad thing, the US promotes US interests not British ones, it's why the UK is in such an awful state. We could start by leaving the EU, withdrawing from NATO, pursuing an independent nuclear policy, refusing to get involved in American wars, nationalise American business, start our own film industry and align with our former great patners Russia and France.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by Good bloke)
By definition, all religions are superstition - they are all irrational beliefs based on fear of the unknown and characterized by an obsession with ritualistic behaviour and reverence for omen and symbols.

But Catholicism has been exposed to several hundred years of enlightenment in Europe, and its adherents have no expectation or serious hope, these days, that the laws of the land will make significant special concessions to its views. That is not the case with Islam, where large numbers of its adherents, even those living in the west already, hanker after Sharia law and special considerations for their superstitious feelings. neither does Catholicism look down on those who disagree with its beliefs, unlike Islam, which makes special provision for unbelievers.
Catholicism isn't enlightened, it denies contraception to poverty and disease stricken places, and will make abortion illegal, fvorcing it underground, wherever it goes-even in modern day Ireland.
Abortion is legal in Turkey and has just been made legal in the case of rape dangers to the mother's health, foetal mlaformation, and incest in Morocco. Far more liberal than Ireland here. And hasn't Poland just brought ina lot of catholic conservative legislation? So many of the arguments here are lazy and knee jerk.
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