Ten Reasons to Stand up to Islamophobia and The 'War on Terror': My Response
Article: Ten reasons to stand up to Islamophobia and the 'war on terror'
Authors: Adrian Cousins & Chris Nineham – "Indie pop band drummer .. Trotskyist .. founder of the Stop the War Coalition"
Publisher: "Revolutionary socialist organisation dedicated to overthrow of capitalism by working class" | Counterfire.org
Islamophobia ~ Hatred or fear of Islam or Muslims
Endless war ~ War without end e.g. The Hundred Years' War
- - -
The Response of a Politically Independent Pragmatic Pluralist, Agnostic Humanist, Graduate Social Scientist
Let me preface these responses by just making it clear that I believe that there is no place for hatred in a civilised/enlightened society, that I sympathise with all human beings, including criminals/terrorists under any banner (albeit that I generally abhor their actions), and that for me stable, sustainably diverse, and vibrant, national, regional, and international systems are optimal for human harmony, progress, and prosperity
1.(a) Unemployment: Many of those unemployed either remain unemployable (poor language skills etc), only want to work in very particular (halal, rather than haram) settings, or simply don't want to work or contribute to our society and/or the things HM Treasury will spend their taxes on e.g. progressive Western education, military forces, and so on
1.(b) Discrimination: Prejudice and ill treatment must be challenged but it is not reasonable to expect discrimination to have done anything other than rise in the context of e.g.
i) Many heinous acts, from sex offences perpetrated against our young and vulnerable on an industrial scale, through to mass casualty terrorism, have been perpetrated by members of Muslim/Eastern communities, often in the name of said communities or quite pointedly directed at/victimising 'the other'
ii) A large proportion of Muslims in the West harbour highly divisive, retrograde, and arguably radical, views, categorically incompatible with British values. This violent + non-violent ideological hotbed for, and of, extremism is, in fact, the primary, if somewhat less salient, sociological concern – a fact that the mainsteam political establishment has finally cottoned onto and is beginning to make noises about (principally, Cameron et al.)
2. Poverty: Most immigrants of South Asian origin emigrated to the UK with little in the way of spoken, never mind written, English, education, starting capital, or knowledge of/preparedness for our institutions/norms/way of life. It is little wonder, then, that they are a community that will take time to catch up with the rest of society, in any system (even a Communist one). Regarding child poverty, in the context of the above, having large families cannot help
3.(a) Official discrimination: I have seen no evidence of this but welcome cited examples
3.(b) Media stereotyping: I am not conscious of this in the mainstream media but, again, welcome cited examples. We value free speech, and the freedom to satirise, in the UK – those of us with balls will defend these freedoms/values to the death, in spite of the censoring zeal of Islamists and PC pseudo-progressives, and related mob/terror threats. We will not be silenced/Islamised
4.(a) Prison populations: That 60% of the prison population in France are Muslims, and Muslims are three and a quarter times overrepresented in the UK prison population, clearly demonstrates why it is legitimate to brand a (significant) portion of the Muslim community in Europe social pariahs. There will be an element of discrimination in apprehension, charging, convicting and sentencing, just as there is in the case of the male vs. female criminal justice picture, but this cannot reasonably be expected to capture the majority of, never mind the whole of, the above disproportional trend
4.(b) Christian institutional support: We live within a civilisational/geographic entity known as ‘The West’, formerly ‘Western Christendom’, and our cultures, societies, and their institutions, norms, rules, laws, and way of life, are irrefutably, inexorably shaped by the Judeo-Christian legacy of the past several hundred years
Related institutions hence feed into and support a healthy functioning society whereas Islamism, and related retrograde ethno-cultural norms/values (as exemplified and explicated in the facts and figures contained within this post), has absolutely no place in our society – and with Islam (and its infrastructure) comes Islamism. Supporting the later financially makes absolutely no sense, and in the view of many learned social scientists must be viewed as tantamount to degrading our social fabric, reversing human progress, diluting our Democracy, and threatening the plurality of the system
That said, many European countries are providing funding to Muslim organisations, with mixed results, and some such organisations may of course be legitimately be (carefully) funded so as to bring about lasting, genuinely, sustainably pro-social and progressive changes in our societies
5. ‘War on Terror’: A more accurate reflection would be to suggest that the rise in hate crime is closely linked to the aftermath of nearly 3,000 souls (hundreds of them Europeans) perishing in the World Trade Centre attacks, perpetrated by Muslims, in the name of Islam, against the US and the civilisation of which it is a part (the West), and the ‘War on Terror’ that then ensued*
It is also linked, in the UK, to the 7/7 bombings, in which 52 innocents lost their lives, and hundreds were injured. In Europe, to the above, plus Madrid, Paris #1 and #2, and a number of other, smaller atrocities perpetrated in the name of ‘Allah’. Incidentally, it is not helpful when (left wing/anti-war) political actors sympathise with terrorists and use language that feeds narratives that seek to justify/laud terrorist attrocities e.g. Ken Livingstone – Mayor of London at the time of the 7/7 attack – who recently stated on national television that the bombers "gave their lives" in the cause of protesting the Iraq War
Within particular communities, the rise in hate crime is, further, linked to the non-integrating and anti-social behaviours of local Muslim populations – rarely registered, in fact, as hate crime; this includes hate crime directed at white/non-Muslim people (including and especially child grooming gangs) and the insidious Islamisation of various institutions vital to a vibrant, free Democracy e.g. educational and legal systems
The belief that Muslims pose a security or terrorist threat is negative but not false when you are talking probabilistic threat – anyone who keeps abreast of the news from time to time can see that, and for those who remain blind to this a cursory glance at the facts and figures provided within this post alone should prove sufficiently enlightening
6. Military interventions: The Afghan and Iraq Wars took place over a period twice as long as the Second World War but this hardly constitutes a cycle of endless war. Dating back to the Dark Ages, prior to 9/11 the West scarcely engaged in direct, protracted wars with regional powers in the Muslim world. That said, more clinical retaliatory strikes on Al Quaeda and the Taliban, and a less shambolic/resource driven Iraq conflict would indeed have been mutually beneficial. The Iraq Inquiry (Chilcot) needs to report sooner rather than later and lessons must be learnt in order to prevent causing massive, avoidable human and material destruction and misery in future, and indeed to prevent fanning the flames of extremism, and in part consequently, Islamophobia
7. Domestic intelligence: Mass surveillance and entrapment, and Islamist extremism being used as a pretext for changes in the normative/legislative landscape with regard to investigatory powers/judicial process, are unquestionably things that we should all be concerned about. As for direct surveillance, in the absence of harassment those with nothing to hide have nothing to worry about and we have to allow our security services to do their jobs, investigate suspicious activity, and seek to apprehend suspects and to prevent criminal/terror activity. They have been doing this exceptionally well over the past several years, and deserve great credit and gratitude on the part of those they serve and protect
The reality is that educational establishments and non-academic youth/community groups alike have become ‘safe spaces’ in which extremists have been able to operate, and spread their divisive, anti-social, and in some cases, extremist, propaganda, at will. There is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging everyone to enjoy the freedoms we do and inviting death to our doorsteps e.g. by looking the other way when trouble looms. Many youngsters are radicalised/criminalised from a shockingly early age, never mind exposed to illegal activity on the part of others – so to imply that this age-group should be off-limits in terms of criminal investigation (in any setting, not just security matters) is at best naive, or else, frankly, socially negligent
Untrained, underfunded workers within related institutions cannot reasonably be expected to turn super-sleuth and to report on everything – apart from anything else, to do so would be to break down trust and cohesion within, as well as between, communities, and we don’t want that; however, we all have a responsibility to be diligent, and, ultimately, to preserve life, and indeed our way of life, and whilst it is not consistent with our values to pressure people to spread skewed propaganda out of some misguided desire to insulate us from the political fallout of foreign policy and related anger, it is important to encourage people to take a considered, balanced (humane) approach to dealing with complex socio-political issues
8.(a) Detainment without charge: Occasionally this will be necessary and two weeks, in the name of national security, is hardly the end of the world. Jury service can be as long as that, and is again, in the national interest. What we must all realise is that with rights, come responsibilities – if you are not willing to invest in our country/civilisation, to buy into its norms and values, and occasionally to make related sacrifices, then really one has to wonder: what on earth are you doing here!?
8.(b) 'Extraordinary rendition': The ways and means of the CIA and other, complicit, armed/intel services e.g. during the ‘War on Terror’ clearly overstepped the mark in terms of ethics and legality in many thousands of cases. However, I am not assured of a reasonable, never mind substantiated, link to Islamophobia in civil society
9. Stop and searches: Have tended to amount to a minor inconvenience and perhaps a little embarrassment – a small price to pay for peace of mind and security for the general public. I have absolutely no problem being profiled for a stop and search e.g. young, male, walking around town, alone, at night, with a bag on (as has happened to me, personally). Whether these investigations produce a single conviction is irrelevant – if airport scanners never produce a single detection of a bomb in the UK over a number of years does that mean you do away with them?
10. Anti-Muslim racism: Firstly, Islam is not a race – to insinuate that it is insults e.g. non-ethnically Arab Muslims. Secondly, it is important to separate elements within racial/cultural tensions e.g. racism from xenophobia and racialism, and Islamophobia into the fear and hatred elements. Hatred/inferior status directed at anyone in society is abhorrent and destructive, and should be challenged
Xenophobia, racialism, and fears may be unfair/disproportionate and undermine social cohesion, and should hence be quelled/challenged where possible, but are perfectly legal, and somewhat rational in the circumstances. Stifling discourse/debate relating to these elements, whilst failing to address related underlying problems, will prove counter-productive in terms of the ramping up of tensions/frustration and hence Islamophobic rhetoric/attacks, as we are seeing on the continent
To break the cycle of the more sinister side of this picture (genuine hatred of Muslims/racism towards ethnic groups associated with Islam) we must stand up to those who espouse hatred and assumed superiority, indeed. We must also, however, consider and tackle other aspects of this issue, such as those raised in this post – difficult as they may be for many to accept
Authors: Adrian Cousins & Chris Nineham – "Indie pop band drummer .. Trotskyist .. founder of the Stop the War Coalition"
Publisher: "Revolutionary socialist organisation dedicated to overthrow of capitalism by working class" | Counterfire.org
Islamophobia ~ Hatred or fear of Islam or Muslims
Endless war ~ War without end e.g. The Hundred Years' War
- - -
The Response of a Politically Independent Pragmatic Pluralist, Agnostic Humanist, Graduate Social Scientist
Let me preface these responses by just making it clear that I believe that there is no place for hatred in a civilised/enlightened society, that I sympathise with all human beings, including criminals/terrorists under any banner (albeit that I generally abhor their actions), and that for me stable, sustainably diverse, and vibrant, national, regional, and international systems are optimal for human harmony, progress, and prosperity
1.(a) Unemployment: Many of those unemployed either remain unemployable (poor language skills etc), only want to work in very particular (halal, rather than haram) settings, or simply don't want to work or contribute to our society and/or the things HM Treasury will spend their taxes on e.g. progressive Western education, military forces, and so on
1.(b) Discrimination: Prejudice and ill treatment must be challenged but it is not reasonable to expect discrimination to have done anything other than rise in the context of e.g.
i) Many heinous acts, from sex offences perpetrated against our young and vulnerable on an industrial scale, through to mass casualty terrorism, have been perpetrated by members of Muslim/Eastern communities, often in the name of said communities or quite pointedly directed at/victimising 'the other'
ii) A large proportion of Muslims in the West harbour highly divisive, retrograde, and arguably radical, views, categorically incompatible with British values. This violent + non-violent ideological hotbed for, and of, extremism is, in fact, the primary, if somewhat less salient, sociological concern – a fact that the mainsteam political establishment has finally cottoned onto and is beginning to make noises about (principally, Cameron et al.)
2. Poverty: Most immigrants of South Asian origin emigrated to the UK with little in the way of spoken, never mind written, English, education, starting capital, or knowledge of/preparedness for our institutions/norms/way of life. It is little wonder, then, that they are a community that will take time to catch up with the rest of society, in any system (even a Communist one). Regarding child poverty, in the context of the above, having large families cannot help
3.(a) Official discrimination: I have seen no evidence of this but welcome cited examples
3.(b) Media stereotyping: I am not conscious of this in the mainstream media but, again, welcome cited examples. We value free speech, and the freedom to satirise, in the UK – those of us with balls will defend these freedoms/values to the death, in spite of the censoring zeal of Islamists and PC pseudo-progressives, and related mob/terror threats. We will not be silenced/Islamised
4.(a) Prison populations: That 60% of the prison population in France are Muslims, and Muslims are three and a quarter times overrepresented in the UK prison population, clearly demonstrates why it is legitimate to brand a (significant) portion of the Muslim community in Europe social pariahs. There will be an element of discrimination in apprehension, charging, convicting and sentencing, just as there is in the case of the male vs. female criminal justice picture, but this cannot reasonably be expected to capture the majority of, never mind the whole of, the above disproportional trend
4.(b) Christian institutional support: We live within a civilisational/geographic entity known as ‘The West’, formerly ‘Western Christendom’, and our cultures, societies, and their institutions, norms, rules, laws, and way of life, are irrefutably, inexorably shaped by the Judeo-Christian legacy of the past several hundred years
Related institutions hence feed into and support a healthy functioning society whereas Islamism, and related retrograde ethno-cultural norms/values (as exemplified and explicated in the facts and figures contained within this post), has absolutely no place in our society – and with Islam (and its infrastructure) comes Islamism. Supporting the later financially makes absolutely no sense, and in the view of many learned social scientists must be viewed as tantamount to degrading our social fabric, reversing human progress, diluting our Democracy, and threatening the plurality of the system
That said, many European countries are providing funding to Muslim organisations, with mixed results, and some such organisations may of course be legitimately be (carefully) funded so as to bring about lasting, genuinely, sustainably pro-social and progressive changes in our societies
5. ‘War on Terror’: A more accurate reflection would be to suggest that the rise in hate crime is closely linked to the aftermath of nearly 3,000 souls (hundreds of them Europeans) perishing in the World Trade Centre attacks, perpetrated by Muslims, in the name of Islam, against the US and the civilisation of which it is a part (the West), and the ‘War on Terror’ that then ensued*
It is also linked, in the UK, to the 7/7 bombings, in which 52 innocents lost their lives, and hundreds were injured. In Europe, to the above, plus Madrid, Paris #1 and #2, and a number of other, smaller atrocities perpetrated in the name of ‘Allah’. Incidentally, it is not helpful when (left wing/anti-war) political actors sympathise with terrorists and use language that feeds narratives that seek to justify/laud terrorist attrocities e.g. Ken Livingstone – Mayor of London at the time of the 7/7 attack – who recently stated on national television that the bombers "gave their lives" in the cause of protesting the Iraq War
Within particular communities, the rise in hate crime is, further, linked to the non-integrating and anti-social behaviours of local Muslim populations – rarely registered, in fact, as hate crime; this includes hate crime directed at white/non-Muslim people (including and especially child grooming gangs) and the insidious Islamisation of various institutions vital to a vibrant, free Democracy e.g. educational and legal systems
The belief that Muslims pose a security or terrorist threat is negative but not false when you are talking probabilistic threat – anyone who keeps abreast of the news from time to time can see that, and for those who remain blind to this a cursory glance at the facts and figures provided within this post alone should prove sufficiently enlightening
6. Military interventions: The Afghan and Iraq Wars took place over a period twice as long as the Second World War but this hardly constitutes a cycle of endless war. Dating back to the Dark Ages, prior to 9/11 the West scarcely engaged in direct, protracted wars with regional powers in the Muslim world. That said, more clinical retaliatory strikes on Al Quaeda and the Taliban, and a less shambolic/resource driven Iraq conflict would indeed have been mutually beneficial. The Iraq Inquiry (Chilcot) needs to report sooner rather than later and lessons must be learnt in order to prevent causing massive, avoidable human and material destruction and misery in future, and indeed to prevent fanning the flames of extremism, and in part consequently, Islamophobia
7. Domestic intelligence: Mass surveillance and entrapment, and Islamist extremism being used as a pretext for changes in the normative/legislative landscape with regard to investigatory powers/judicial process, are unquestionably things that we should all be concerned about. As for direct surveillance, in the absence of harassment those with nothing to hide have nothing to worry about and we have to allow our security services to do their jobs, investigate suspicious activity, and seek to apprehend suspects and to prevent criminal/terror activity. They have been doing this exceptionally well over the past several years, and deserve great credit and gratitude on the part of those they serve and protect
The reality is that educational establishments and non-academic youth/community groups alike have become ‘safe spaces’ in which extremists have been able to operate, and spread their divisive, anti-social, and in some cases, extremist, propaganda, at will. There is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging everyone to enjoy the freedoms we do and inviting death to our doorsteps e.g. by looking the other way when trouble looms. Many youngsters are radicalised/criminalised from a shockingly early age, never mind exposed to illegal activity on the part of others – so to imply that this age-group should be off-limits in terms of criminal investigation (in any setting, not just security matters) is at best naive, or else, frankly, socially negligent
Untrained, underfunded workers within related institutions cannot reasonably be expected to turn super-sleuth and to report on everything – apart from anything else, to do so would be to break down trust and cohesion within, as well as between, communities, and we don’t want that; however, we all have a responsibility to be diligent, and, ultimately, to preserve life, and indeed our way of life, and whilst it is not consistent with our values to pressure people to spread skewed propaganda out of some misguided desire to insulate us from the political fallout of foreign policy and related anger, it is important to encourage people to take a considered, balanced (humane) approach to dealing with complex socio-political issues
8.(a) Detainment without charge: Occasionally this will be necessary and two weeks, in the name of national security, is hardly the end of the world. Jury service can be as long as that, and is again, in the national interest. What we must all realise is that with rights, come responsibilities – if you are not willing to invest in our country/civilisation, to buy into its norms and values, and occasionally to make related sacrifices, then really one has to wonder: what on earth are you doing here!?
8.(b) 'Extraordinary rendition': The ways and means of the CIA and other, complicit, armed/intel services e.g. during the ‘War on Terror’ clearly overstepped the mark in terms of ethics and legality in many thousands of cases. However, I am not assured of a reasonable, never mind substantiated, link to Islamophobia in civil society
9. Stop and searches: Have tended to amount to a minor inconvenience and perhaps a little embarrassment – a small price to pay for peace of mind and security for the general public. I have absolutely no problem being profiled for a stop and search e.g. young, male, walking around town, alone, at night, with a bag on (as has happened to me, personally). Whether these investigations produce a single conviction is irrelevant – if airport scanners never produce a single detection of a bomb in the UK over a number of years does that mean you do away with them?
10. Anti-Muslim racism: Firstly, Islam is not a race – to insinuate that it is insults e.g. non-ethnically Arab Muslims. Secondly, it is important to separate elements within racial/cultural tensions e.g. racism from xenophobia and racialism, and Islamophobia into the fear and hatred elements. Hatred/inferior status directed at anyone in society is abhorrent and destructive, and should be challenged
Xenophobia, racialism, and fears may be unfair/disproportionate and undermine social cohesion, and should hence be quelled/challenged where possible, but are perfectly legal, and somewhat rational in the circumstances. Stifling discourse/debate relating to these elements, whilst failing to address related underlying problems, will prove counter-productive in terms of the ramping up of tensions/frustration and hence Islamophobic rhetoric/attacks, as we are seeing on the continent
To break the cycle of the more sinister side of this picture (genuine hatred of Muslims/racism towards ethnic groups associated with Islam) we must stand up to those who espouse hatred and assumed superiority, indeed. We must also, however, consider and tackle other aspects of this issue, such as those raised in this post – difficult as they may be for many to accept
(edited 5 years ago)
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Original post by Foo.mp3
To break the cycle of the more sinister/illegitimate side of this picture (genuine hatred of Muslims/racism towards ethnic groups associated with Islam) one must stand up to those who espouse hatred and assumed superiority, indeed. One must also, however, consider and tackle other aspects of this issue, such as those raised in this post – difficult as they may be for many to accept
To break the cycle of the more sinister/illegitimate side of this picture (genuine hatred of Muslims/racism towards ethnic groups associated with Islam) one must stand up to those who espouse hatred and assumed superiority, indeed. One must also, however, consider and tackle other aspects of this issue, such as those raised in this post – difficult as they may be for many to accept
A very well reasoned post
(now this is what I expect from a student forum)
An excellent response to the article.
Those who use the word Islamophobia tend to shoot themselves in the foot by doing so as they define it to include hatred against Moslems as well as hatred or fear of Islam - two very different things.
Hatred of Moslems in general is both illegal and abhorrent.
Dislike and fear of Islam, however, is perfectly reasonable and understandable - it is a nasty, aggressive, hate-filled political ideology as well as a barbaric set of mediaeval superstitions.
Fortunately many Moslems seem able to ignore what the Koran tells them to do (which makes one wonder why they espouse Islam in the first place), just as modern Christians and Jews ignore the nastier bits of the Bible. It is, nevertheless, a concern that the ideology's ruling document, supposedly the direct word of the creator god, is so barbaric and aggressive.
What it says certainly acts as a barrier to the full assimilation into western society of many Moslems, and allows the more radical elements to try to use it to stop such assimilation.
Those who use the word Islamophobia tend to shoot themselves in the foot by doing so as they define it to include hatred against Moslems as well as hatred or fear of Islam - two very different things.
Hatred of Moslems in general is both illegal and abhorrent.
Dislike and fear of Islam, however, is perfectly reasonable and understandable - it is a nasty, aggressive, hate-filled political ideology as well as a barbaric set of mediaeval superstitions.
Fortunately many Moslems seem able to ignore what the Koran tells them to do (which makes one wonder why they espouse Islam in the first place), just as modern Christians and Jews ignore the nastier bits of the Bible. It is, nevertheless, a concern that the ideology's ruling document, supposedly the direct word of the creator god, is so barbaric and aggressive.
What it says certainly acts as a barrier to the full assimilation into western society of many Moslems, and allows the more radical elements to try to use it to stop such assimilation.
Original post by al_94
This is all your opinion post some facts I don't care about the article but they gave some facts at least what you said because is only opinions
Would you not expect to read opinions in a discussion forum, then?
Only lefties would argue about the points made in the article
Original post by Foo.mp3
Article: Ten reasons to stand up to Islamophobia and the 'war on terror'
Authors: Adrian Cousins & Chris Nineham – "Indie pop band drummer .. Trotskyist .. founder member of the Stop the War Coalition"
Publisher: "Counterfire is a revolutionary socialist organisation dedicated to the overthrow of capitalism by the working class" | Counterfire.org
Islamophobia ~ Hatred or fear of Islam or Muslims
Endless war ~ War without end e.g. The Hundred Years' War
Let me preface these responses by just making it clear that I believe that there is no place for hatred in a civilised/enlightened society, that I sympathise with all human beings, including criminals/terrorists under any banner (albeit that I generally abhor their actions), and that for me stable, sustainably diverse, and vibrant, national, regional, and international systems are optimal for human harmony, progress, and prosperity
Authors: Adrian Cousins & Chris Nineham – "Indie pop band drummer .. Trotskyist .. founder member of the Stop the War Coalition"
Publisher: "Counterfire is a revolutionary socialist organisation dedicated to the overthrow of capitalism by the working class" | Counterfire.org
Islamophobia ~ Hatred or fear of Islam or Muslims
Endless war ~ War without end e.g. The Hundred Years' War
- - -
The Response of a Politically Independent Pragmatic Pluralist, Agnostic Humanist, Graduate Social Scientist
The Response of a Politically Independent Pragmatic Pluralist, Agnostic Humanist, Graduate Social Scientist
Let me preface these responses by just making it clear that I believe that there is no place for hatred in a civilised/enlightened society, that I sympathise with all human beings, including criminals/terrorists under any banner (albeit that I generally abhor their actions), and that for me stable, sustainably diverse, and vibrant, national, regional, and international systems are optimal for human harmony, progress, and prosperity
I agree on some points and I disagree on others but to make this an effective discussion, I shall approach it with full opposition.
1.(a) Unemployment:
Many of those "unemployed" (mainly women) are actually, in the vast majority of cases, housewives, a profession that has been devalued and demonized due to the fact that it provides no tangible benefit to our economy.
Our quasi-capitalist system would have you believe that anyone without an economic worth deserves to be called out for what, in any normal circumstance, would be an important profession.
1.(b) Discrimination:
i) Many heinous acts, from sex offences perpetrated against our young and vulnerable on an industrial scale, through to mass casualty terrorism, have been perpetrated by members of Muslim/Eastern communities, often in the name of said communities or quite pointedly directed at/victimising 'the other'
I find it disappointing that you would seek to minimise or excuse the behaviour of those that discriminate.
ii)
Regardless of the views that one harbors, that should not be a factor on whether someone should be discriminated against.
2. Poverty:
Many immigrants, of the South Asian persuasion, have managed to become "entrepreneurs" (and to resort to stereotypes, the ubiquitous "corner shop" serves as an example).
I also don't think poverty is even an issue.
3.(a) Official discrimination:
3.(b) Media stereotyping: I am not conscious of this in the mainstream media but, again, welcome cited examples. We value free speech, and the freedom to satirise, in the UK – those of us with balls will defend these freedoms/values to the death, in spite of the censoring zeal of Islamists and PC pseudo-progressives, and related mob/terror threats. We will not be silenced/Islamised
A continuous amount of "bad press" about Muslims within the media will form a prejudiced and preconceived opinion of Muslims.
As such, relationships with Muslims within a community are likely to be strained and instead of taking the time to ascertain and distinguish different personalities and views of Muslims, one simply resorts to pointing out what they presume is a collective view. A position that you have fallen victim to many times in this thread.
4.(a) Prison populations:
The issue with "overrepresentation" is the fact that it assumes that everyone in society is an equal and full participant.
4.(b) Christian institutional support:
Related institutions hence feed into and support a healthy functioning society whereas Islamism, and related retrograde ethno-cultural norms/values (as exemplified and explicated in the facts and figures contained within this post), has absolutely no place in our society – and with Islam (and its infrastructure) comes Islamism. Supporting the later financially makes absolutely no sense, and in the view of many learned social scientists must be viewed as tantamount to degrading our social fabric, reversing human progress, diluting our Democracy, and threatening the plurality of the system
That said, many European countries are providing funding to Muslim organisations, with mixed results, and some such organisations may of course be legitimately be (carefully) funded so as to bring about lasting, genuinely, sustainably pro-social and progressive changes in our societies
The issue is not one of equal funding, but rather that of hypocrisy.
5. ‘War on Terror’:
It is also linked, in the UK, to the 7/7 bombings, in which 52 innocents lost their lives, and hundreds were injured. In Europe, to the above, plus Madrid, Paris #1 and #2, and a number of other, smaller atrocities perpetrated in the name of ‘Allah’. Incidentally, it is not helpful when (left wing/anti-war) political actors sympathise with terrorists and use language that feeds narratives that seek to justify/laud terrorist attrocities e.g. Ken Livingstone – Mayor of London at the time of the 7/7 attack – who recently stated on national television that the bombers "gave their lives" in the cause of protesting the Iraq War
Within particular communities, the rise in hate crime is, further, linked to the non-integrating and anti-social behaviours of local Muslim populations – rarely registered, in fact, as hate crime; this includes hate crime directed at white/non-Muslim people (including and especially child grooming gangs) and the insidious Islamisation of various institutions vital to a vibrant, free Democracy e.g. educational and legal systems
The belief that Muslims pose a security or terrorist threat is negative but not false when you are talking probabilistic threat – anyone who keeps abreast of the news from time to time can see that, and for those who remain blind to this a cursory glance at the facts and figures provided within this post alone should prove sufficiently enlightening
Again, you seem to be excusing the behavior of individuals, who like you, take "facts and figures" and impose that upon the general Muslim population, mistaking them for a monolithic group.
A failure to educate people who commit hate crimes will result in more hate crimes, and the media has a very important role to play within this discourse.
6. Military interventions:
It contributes to a feeling that the West seems to be always intervening within the affairs of Muslims, for their own interests, often economical (which is the antithesis of what Islam stands for).
7. Domestic intelligence:
The reality is that educational establishments and non-academic youth/community groups alike have become ‘safe spaces’ in which extremists have been able to operate, and spread their divisive, anti-social, and in some cases, extremist, propaganda, at will. There is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging everyone to enjoy the freedoms we do and inviting death to our doorsteps e.g. by looking the other way when trouble looms. Many youngsters are radicalised/criminalised from a shockingly early age, never mind exposed to illegal activity on the part of others – so to imply that this age-group should be off-limits in terms of criminal investigation (in any setting, not just security matters) is at best naive, or else, frankly, socially negligent
Untrained, underfunded workers within related institutions cannot reasonably be expected to turn super-sleuth and to report on everything – apart from anything else, to do so would be to break down trust and cohesion within, as well as between, communities, and we don’t want that; however, we all have a responsibility to be diligent, and, ultimately, to preserve life, and indeed our way of life, and whilst it is not consistent with our values to pressure people to spread skewed propaganda out of some misguided desire to insulate us from the political fallout of foreign policy and related anger, it is important to encourage people to take a considered, balanced (humane) approach to dealing with complex socio-political issues
One finds hypocrisy to be readily available within your post.
You claim that you stand for freedoms (freedom of speech specifically) but you are opposed to people airing views which you feel run contrary to that of what you perceive to be correct and becoming.
8.(a) Detainment without charge:
A position of "piss off if you don't subscribe to our values" is not exactly helpful.
8.(b) 'Extraordinary rendition':
It fuels the fire of the West "being against the Muslims".
9. Stop and searches:
The issue with the general public is that it is often driven not by personal experience and a genuine fear, but heightened and sensationalized by facts and figures, and duly reported by our own very "impartial" media.
It's effectively a circular argument.
10. Anti-Muslim racism:
Xenophobia, racialism, and fears may be unfair/disproportionate and undermine social cohesion, and should hence be calmed/quelled/challenged where possible, but are perfectly legal and somewhat rational in the circumstances. Stifling discourse/debate relating to these elements, whilst failing to address related underlying problems, will also prove counter-productive in terms of the ramping up of tensions/frustration and hence Islamophobic rhetoric/attacks, as we are seeing on the continent
To break the cycle of the more sinister/illegitimate side of this picture (genuine hatred of Muslims/racism towards ethnic groups associated with Islam) one must stand up to those who espouse hatred and assumed superiority, indeed. One must also, however, consider and tackle other aspects of this issue, such as those raised in this post – difficult as they may be for many to accept
You present a good argument, but from a platform of complete misunderstanding.
You resort to facts and figures to make an argument that seems to completely dismiss the "personal" or societal touch, whilst paradoxically talking about societal norms and values.
You have complete disregard from the prism which you view this clash, harboring nostalgic ideals, and leaving the manner in which society has become more individualistic in darkness.
You seem to struggle reconciling the notions of what society has become, within the parameters of what you have determined are our values.
I am pretty sure that if you were to now view the points (excellent points, mind you) through the eyes of "community vs individual", it would give you a lot more answers about the schism and issues facing us in Britain today.
Lol. The more people hate Muslims, the stronger Muslim terrorists get..
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by TheArtofProtest
I find it disappointing that you would seek to minimise or excuse the behaviour of those that discriminate.
Regardless of the views that one harbors, that should not be a factor on whether someone should be discriminated against.
I find it disappointing that you would seek to minimise or excuse the behaviour of those that discriminate.
Regardless of the views that one harbors, that should not be a factor on whether someone should be discriminated against.
Yet Moslem women, in large numbers, deliberately wear clothing that sets them apart and demands that non-believers treat them differently. Others stay at home, either through a fear of being spiritually contaminated by the unbelievers they refuse to integrate with or because they are "encouraged" to by their menfolk. How can assimilated Moslems and native westerners do anything other than discriminate when dealing with such negative signals?
Original post by Good bloke
Yet Moslem women, in large numbers, deliberately wear clothing that sets them apart and demands that non-believers treat them differently. Others stay at home, either through a fear of being spiritually contaminated by the unbelievers they refuse to integrate with or because they are "encouraged" to by their menfolk. How can assimilated Moslems and native westerners do anything other than discriminate when dealing with such negative signals?
Sounds like you're making excuses for discrimination.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
Sounds like you're making excuses for discrimination.
Not at all. I am merely pointing out that many Moslem women wear clothing that actively says (and is intended to say) Keep away, I am different and do not wish to form a relationship with you. This is normal in Moslem countries, but is certainly not normal in the west.
The ones that stay in the house are not discriminated against, of course, as they do not interact, much less integrate.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
And where they do happen to venture out, they are treated with worse hostility than you have shown.
And where they do happen to venture out, they are treated with worse hostility than you have shown.
I have shown no hostility at all. I am merely explaining that when westerners receive a message that says I set myself apart and want nothing to do with you they will often react to that message, and it won't always be a positive reaction.
Walking the streets, hidden under a sheet, and deflecting interaction, is not integrating.
Original post by skunkboy
ikr, isis mandems like the sith
Original post by Good bloke
An excellent response to the article.
Those who use the word Islamophobia tend to shoot themselves in the foot by doing so as they define it to include hatred against Moslems as well as hatred or fear of Islam - two very different things.
Hatred of Moslems in general is both illegal and abhorrent.
Dislike and fear of Islam, however, is perfectly reasonable and understandable - it is a nasty, aggressive, hate-filled political ideology as well as a barbaric set of mediaeval superstitions.
Fortunately many Moslems seem able to ignore what the Koran tells them to do (which makes one wonder why they espouse Islam in the first place), just as modern Christians and Jews ignore the nastier bits of the Bible. It is, nevertheless, a concern that the ideology's ruling document, supposedly the direct word of the creator god, is so barbaric and aggressive.
What it says certainly acts as a barrier to the full assimilation into western society of many Moslems, and allows the more radical elements to try to use it to stop such assimilation.
Those who use the word Islamophobia tend to shoot themselves in the foot by doing so as they define it to include hatred against Moslems as well as hatred or fear of Islam - two very different things.
Hatred of Moslems in general is both illegal and abhorrent.
Dislike and fear of Islam, however, is perfectly reasonable and understandable - it is a nasty, aggressive, hate-filled political ideology as well as a barbaric set of mediaeval superstitions.
Fortunately many Moslems seem able to ignore what the Koran tells them to do (which makes one wonder why they espouse Islam in the first place), just as modern Christians and Jews ignore the nastier bits of the Bible. It is, nevertheless, a concern that the ideology's ruling document, supposedly the direct word of the creator god, is so barbaric and aggressive.
What it says certainly acts as a barrier to the full assimilation into western society of many Moslems, and allows the more radical elements to try to use it to stop such assimilation.
It baffles me that some cannot understand this simple concept.
I am yet to see any counter arguement to this point whatsoever. It is practically repeated in every single thread but for some reason they all seem to side step it.
Tsr Muslims that think it is wrong to critisise Islam, Why do you think so?
(edited 8 years ago)
Islamophobia is manufactured by the Jewish run media, and by Israel,
because Israel have caused the destabilization of Syria and the Middle East. supported by the Jewish American neocons.
This is fact
because Israel have caused the destabilization of Syria and the Middle East. supported by the Jewish American neocons.
This is fact
Original post by Good bloke
Those who use the word Islamophobia tend to shoot themselves in the foot by doing so as they define it to include hatred against Moslems as well as hatred or fear of Islam - two very different things.
I think this is where most of people's issues with this topic come from tbh. My personal understanding of the word 'Islamophobia' was - mostly from my impression from the media - hatred/attacks towards Muslims, not Islam. I suppose something along the lines of 'Muslimophobia' would've made more sense, but it doesn't sound as good and Muslims are 'followers of Islam' so it kinda does work... anyway, I do think that a big problem is this discussion is that there is no one definition of Islamophobia. Or that's how it seems to me, anyway.
Original post by Foo.mp3
Islamophobia ~ Hatred or fear of Islam or Muslims
The first problem (which I've already mentioned to someone else) - people define Islamophobia in different ways and imo there isn't one clear definition. Here it's defined as a hatred/fear or Islam or Muslims; I used to define it as hatred of Muslims. We need someone somewhere to define the bloody word so we can stop arguing about it.
1.(a) Unemployment: Many of those unemployed either remain unemployable (poor language skills etc), only want to work in very particular (halal, rather than haram) settings, or simply don't want to work or contribute to our society and/or the things HM Treasury will spend their taxes on e.g. progressive Western education, military forces, and so on
Is housewife/-husband included on something like the census as an occupation? Curious, because if not - as has been mentioned - housewives make may up a proporton of the unemployed. However, I do agree that some of the unemployed will be so due to their English skills, which isn't right.
1.(b) Discrimination: Prejudice and ill treatment must be challenged but it is not reasonable to expect discrimination to have done anything other than rise in the context of e.g.
Or we could expect people not to tar everyone with the same brush, but maybe that'd be too much to ask...
3.(b) Media stereotyping: I am not conscious of this in the mainstream media but, again, welcome cited examples. We value free speech, and the freedom to satirise, in the UK – those of us with balls will defend these freedoms/values to the death, in spite of the censoring zeal of Islamists and PC pseudo-progressives, and related mob/terror threats. We will not be silenced/Islamised
Freedom of speech, great, in my top fave freedoms, but it's worth saying that there's a difference between free speech and what Fox News calls free speech
That said, many European countries are providing funding to Muslim organisations, with mixed results, and some such organisations may of course be legitimately be (carefully) funded so as to bring about lasting, genuinely, sustainably pro-social and progressive changes in our societies
Imo we shouldn't state fund any religious institution but that's just me
7. Domestic intelligence: Mass surveillance and entrapment, and Islamist extremism being used as a pretext for changes in the normative/legislative landscape with regard to investigatory powers/judicial process, are unquestionably things that we should all be concerned about. As for direct surveillance, in the absence of harassment those with nothing to hide have nothing to worry about and we have to allow our security services to do their jobs, investigate suspicious activity, and seek to apprehend suspects and to prevent criminal/terror activity.
Said Theresa May before refusing a FoI enquiry from the Independent
Weren't we just discussing yesterday how bad East Berlin was? The worry is, you give security services/the government an inch and they'll take a mile. Of course security services should be able to investigate potential threats etc. but it's where that changes to mass surveillance in the name of security, a la NSA, that is the worry. It's easy to abuse power.
8.(a) Detainment without charge: Occasionally this will be necessary and two weeks, in the name of national security, is hardly the end of the world. Jury service can be as long as that, and is again, in the national interest. What we must all realise, minorities included, is that with rights, come responsibilities – if you are not willing to invest in our country/civilisation, to buy into its norms and values, and occasionally to make related sacrifices, then really one has to wonder: what on earth are you doing here!?
Jury service... being detained without charge... hmm, I wonder what the difference could be...
8.(b) 'Extraordinary rendition': The ways and means of the CIA and other, complicit, armed/intel services e.g. during the ‘War on Terror’ clearly overstepped the mark in terms of ethics and legality in many thousands of cases. However, I am not assured of a reasonable, never mind substantiated, link to Islamophobia in civil society
I think I agree with you here. It's lead to anger and disgust at torturous organisations, but I wouldn't say Islamophobia.
9. Stop and searches: Have tended to amount to a minor inconvenience and perhaps a little embarrassment – a small price to pay for peace of mind and security for the general public. I have absolutely no problem being profiled for a stop and search e.g. young, male, walking around town, alone, at night, with a bag on (as has happened to me, personally). Whether these investigations produce a single conviction is irrelevant – if airport scanners never produce a single detection of a bomb in the UK over a number of years does that mean you do away with them?
The difference is that everyone goes through airport scanners and are patted down only if they set off the scanner (the number of times a tiny bit of metal on my jeans has done that to me). Stop and search is subject to conscious and unconscious human prejudices.
Well. I think it's time for a snack.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
You don't think that discrimination is an expression of hostility towards someone?
You keep throwing excuses in an attempt to justify discrimination and trying to make out that it is the victim's fault for the discrimination that they face.
You keep throwing excuses in an attempt to justify discrimination and trying to make out that it is the victim's fault for the discrimination that they face.
You seem to be using discriminate to mean "do bad things to", whereas its true meaning is either "recognise the difference" or "single out". I suggest you consult a reputable dictionary.
If someone wears their superstitious and social beliefs in the form of distinctive clothes, giving off the deliberate and overt signal Don't behave towards me as you would to a non-believer, how can I not discriminate? She would not be happy if I ignored the signal and behaved towards her as I might to a non-believer (in other words, did not discriminate), would she?
Original post by TheArtofProtest
I suggest that if you want this discourse to be beneficial, you start acting like the mature person that you are and not play around with the semantics because It's making you look foolish and petulant.
I suggest that if you want this discourse to be beneficial, you start acting like the mature person that you are and not play around with the semantics because It's making you look foolish and petulant.
Stop being a clown, and obsessing about one word and think about what I have said. Properly.
A Moslem veil wearer is demanding of those around her that she be treated differently. Because of her superstitious beliefs.
If she is not treated differently, she will be unhappy. She is not assimilating herself into society; she is rejecting large elements of it. This should be obvious to anyone.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
She is not forcing them but she is giving a very strong signal that that is what she wants. But get rid of this notion of discrimination being always against something. She wants discrimination to her advantage (as she considers it). Unfortunately, she forgets that, by giving that signal, she is rejecting society, saying it isn't good enough for her and herself discriminating against society.
Equivalent signals are given off by other groups that don't want to conform to the society around them - punks, skinheads, emos are good examples - and they too get negative reactions to this self-ostracisation. It is to be expected because they are all putting up barriers to effective communication.
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