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V916 - Male Circumcision Prohibition Bill 2016 Watch

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  • View Poll Results: Should this bill be passed into law?
    As many are of the opinion, Aye
    64.58%
    On the contrary, No
    16.67%
    Abstain
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Well, you kinda are saying that given that you are saying that you don't think they should and are exercising power that makes it punishable
    I'm not the one exercising the power because the House as a collective is what has the power. I'm simply playing a role in the process that decides whether the House should use the power.

    (Original post by Life_peer)
    If this House were the real deal, it would be telling someone what to do (otherwise he would face negative consequences). You can't rule without telling someone what to do and whether or not you provide an explanation is irrelevant – for example, I couldn't care less about someone's idea of justice if mine was different.
    That bit I meant in the context of if I was physically talking to someone that I wanted to perform a specific action, face to face.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Aye, the debate on this was brilliant and thank you for all the support
    I think that it's a Bill that I wouldn't necessarily expect to see from UKIP, but one which you should be very proud of - simple, but effective legislation which rights unfairness (it's like I'm writing your manifesto for you )
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I think that it's a Bill that I wouldn't necessarily expect to see from UKIP, but one which you should be very proud of - simple, but effective legislation which rights unfairness (it's like I'm writing your manifesto for you )
    I need to think on the next one, but I think it will involve equality once again, perhaps something to do with domestic abuse, however I would have to consider what to change.
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    Let them make their own decision! Aye
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    Aye

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    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    Aye.

    To sum up for everyone:

    Circumcision does great harm to babies.
    Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin. Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

    Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

    Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

    Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Ethical guidelines for animal research whenever possible* - do babies deserve any less?

    Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?

    Myth 6: It doesn't cause the baby long-term harm.Reality check: Incorrect. Removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting patient is, in itself, harm (more on this point later). Circumcision has an array of risks and side effects. There is a 1-3% complication rate during the newborn period alone (Schwartz 1990). Here is a short list potential complications.Meatal Stenosis: Many circumcised boys and men suffer from meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra which can interfere with urination and require surgery to fix. Adhesions. Circumcised babies can suffer from adhesions, where the foreskin remnants try to heal to the head of the penis in an area they are not supposed to grow on. Doctors treat these by ripping them open with no anesthesia. Buried penis. Circumcision can lead to trapped or buried penis - too much skin is removed, and so the penis is forced inside the body. This can lead to problems in adulthood when the man does not have enough skin to have a comfortable erection. Some men even have their skin split open when they have an erection. There are even more sexual consequences, which we will address in a future post. Infection. The circumcision wound can become infected. This is especially dangerous now with the prevalence of hospital-acquired multi-drug resistant bacteria. Death. Babies can even die of circumcision. Over 100 newborns die each year in the USA, mostly from loss of blood and infection (Van Howe 1997 & 2004, Bollinger 2010).

    Circumcision harms women.
    How Circumcision Hurts Women by Jocel Them
    Improve Marital Sex: Keep the Foreskins by Dr. Dean Edell
    How Male Circumcision Impacts Your Love Life by Dr. Christiane Northrup
    Painful Sex: How 9 Months of Foreskin Restoration Helped!
    Tugging Foreskin: A Painful Sex Turn-Around
    Hello Orgasm! How Foreskin Restoration Improved Our Sex Life
    Effects of Male Circumcision on Female Arousal and Orgasm
    A Change in How Intercourse Works (NOCIRC Colorado)
    Marriage and Foreskin: One Couple's Journey to Restoration
    Penis 101 (How Circumcision Changes Intercourse for Men and Women) by Marilyn Milos
    The Lost List (what is lost to circumcision)
    Foreskin Restoration Resources
    Sex As Nature Intended It (website)
    Sex As Nature Intended It (book)
    Male Circumcision Increases HIV rates among Women in Africa
    Functions of the Foreskin by Drs. Fleiss and Hodges
    Partners of Restoring Men (Facebook private group)
    Women Affected by Male Circumcision (Facebook public page)
    "10 Ways Male Circumcision Hurts Women"from the site, Sex As Nature Intended
    1. Coronal Ridge Hook Scrapes the Vaginal Walls, causing Soreness
    2. Circumcised Coronal Hook Pulls Out Vaginal Lubrication
    3. Circumcised Penis's Elongated Thrusting Stroke Dries Out Vaginal Lubrication
    4. Circumcised Penis's Non-Moveable Shaft Skin Creates Friction Irritation
    5. Circumcised Penis "Feels Like You're Being Poked with a Broomstick"
    6. Circumcised Penis Thrusts Hard, Rough and Tough, with Pounding, Bang-away Thrusting
    7. Circumcised Penis's Elongated Strokes Create Infrequent Clitoris Contact that Hinders Her from Achieving Orgasm
    8. Circumcised Penis's Out-of-Sync Thrusting Frustrates Her from Achieving Orgasm
    9. Circumcised Sex Lessens Feelings of Love for One's Partner
    10. Circumcised Sex Can Deteriorate the Relationship

    Circumcision's benefits are overstated or mythical.
    Myth: Uncircumcised boys get more urinary tract infections (UTIs.)Reality check: This claim is based on one study that looked at charts of babies born in one hospital (Wiswell 1985). The study had many problems, including that it didn't accurately count whether or not the babies were circumcised, whether they were premature and thus more susceptible to infection in general, whether they were breastfed (breastfeeding protects against UTI), and if their foreskins had been forcibly retracted (which can introduce harmful bacteria and cause UTI) (Pisacane 1990). There have been many studies since which show either no decrease in UTI with circumcision, or else an increase in UTI from circumcision. Thus circumcision is not recommended to prevent UTI (Thompson 1990). Girls have higher rates of UTI than boys, and yet when a girl gets a UTI, she is simply prescribed antibiotics. The same treatment works for boys.
    Myth: Circumcision prevents HIV/AIDS.Reality check: Three studies in Africa several years ago that claimed that circumcision prevented AIDS and that circumcision was as effective as a 60% effective vaccine (Auvert 2005, 2006). These studies had many flaws, including that they were stopped before all the results came in. There have also been several studies that show that circumcision does not prevent HIV (Connolly 2008). There are many issues at play in the spread of STDs which make it very hard to generalize results from one population to another. In Africa, where the recent studies have been done, most HIV transmission is through male-female sex, but in the USA, it is mainly transmitted through blood exposure (like needle sharing) and male-male sex. Male circumcision does not protect women from acquiring HIV, nor does it protect men who havesex with men (Wawer 2009, Jameson 2009).What's worse, because of the publicity surrounding the African studies, men in Africa are now starting to believe that if they are circumcised, they do not need to wear condoms, which will increase the spread of HIV (Westercamp 2010). Even in the study with the most favorable effects of circumcision, the protective effect was only 60% - men would still have to wear condoms to protect themselves and their partners from HIV. In the USA, during the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 90s, about 85% of adult men were circumcised (much higher rates of circumcision than in Africa), and yet HIV still spread. It is important to understand, too, that the men in the African studies were adults and they volunteered for circumcision. Babies undergoing circumcision were not given the choice to decide for themselves.

    Let's not forget to look at what the NHS says:
    '...there are much more effective and less invasive ways of preventing these conditions. For example, practising good hygiene to prevent UTIs, or using a condom to prevent STIs.'
    'Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision.'
    ...medical reasons, although alternative treatments are usually preferred to circumcision
    ...In such cases, circumcision is usually regarded as a "treatment of last resort", when all other treatment options have failed.

    ---

    Last but not least, this is not 'UKIP trying to do very right-wing things' - members from Labour, Conservative, Green, Liberal, and Social parties, ie all parties, have expressed support for the bill.
    Impressive. You seem to be a true foreskin expert.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Impressive. You seem to be a true foreskin expert.
    Now I hope people can vote based on these very clear evidence instead of selective reading of information on circumcision.
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    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    Aye.

    To sum up for everyone:

    Circumcision does great harm to babies.
    Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin. Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

    Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

    Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

    Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Ethical guidelines for animal research whenever possible* - do babies deserve any less?

    Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?

    Myth 6: It doesn't cause the baby long-term harm.Reality check: Incorrect. Removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting patient is, in itself, harm (more on this point later). Circumcision has an array of risks and side effects. There is a 1-3% complication rate during the newborn period alone (Schwartz 1990). Here is a short list potential complications.Meatal Stenosis: Many circumcised boys and men suffer from meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra which can interfere with urination and require surgery to fix. Adhesions. Circumcised babies can suffer from adhesions, where the foreskin remnants try to heal to the head of the penis in an area they are not supposed to grow on. Doctors treat these by ripping them open with no anesthesia. Buried penis. Circumcision can lead to trapped or buried penis - too much skin is removed, and so the penis is forced inside the body. This can lead to problems in adulthood when the man does not have enough skin to have a comfortable erection. Some men even have their skin split open when they have an erection. There are even more sexual consequences, which we will address in a future post. Infection. The circumcision wound can become infected. This is especially dangerous now with the prevalence of hospital-acquired multi-drug resistant bacteria. Death. Babies can even die of circumcision. Over 100 newborns die each year in the USA, mostly from loss of blood and infection (Van Howe 1997 & 2004, Bollinger 2010).

    Circumcision harms women.
    How Circumcision Hurts Women by Jocel Them
    Improve Marital Sex: Keep the Foreskins by Dr. Dean Edell
    How Male Circumcision Impacts Your Love Life by Dr. Christiane Northrup
    Painful Sex: How 9 Months of Foreskin Restoration Helped!
    Tugging Foreskin: A Painful Sex Turn-Around
    Hello Orgasm! How Foreskin Restoration Improved Our Sex Life
    Effects of Male Circumcision on Female Arousal and Orgasm
    A Change in How Intercourse Works (NOCIRC Colorado)
    Marriage and Foreskin: One Couple's Journey to Restoration
    Penis 101 (How Circumcision Changes Intercourse for Men and Women) by Marilyn Milos
    The Lost List (what is lost to circumcision)
    Foreskin Restoration Resources
    Sex As Nature Intended It (website)
    Sex As Nature Intended It (book)
    Male Circumcision Increases HIV rates among Women in Africa
    Functions of the Foreskin by Drs. Fleiss and Hodges
    Partners of Restoring Men (Facebook private group)
    Women Affected by Male Circumcision (Facebook public page)
    "10 Ways Male Circumcision Hurts Women"from the site, Sex As Nature Intended
    1. Coronal Ridge Hook Scrapes the Vaginal Walls, causing Soreness
    2. Circumcised Coronal Hook Pulls Out Vaginal Lubrication
    3. Circumcised Penis's Elongated Thrusting Stroke Dries Out Vaginal Lubrication
    4. Circumcised Penis's Non-Moveable Shaft Skin Creates Friction Irritation
    5. Circumcised Penis "Feels Like You're Being Poked with a Broomstick"
    6. Circumcised Penis Thrusts Hard, Rough and Tough, with Pounding, Bang-away Thrusting
    7. Circumcised Penis's Elongated Strokes Create Infrequent Clitoris Contact that Hinders Her from Achieving Orgasm
    8. Circumcised Penis's Out-of-Sync Thrusting Frustrates Her from Achieving Orgasm
    9. Circumcised Sex Lessens Feelings of Love for One's Partner
    10. Circumcised Sex Can Deteriorate the Relationship

    Circumcision's benefits are overstated or mythical.
    Myth: Uncircumcised boys get more urinary tract infections (UTIs.)Reality check: This claim is based on one study that looked at charts of babies born in one hospital (Wiswell 1985). The study had many problems, including that it didn't accurately count whether or not the babies were circumcised, whether they were premature and thus more susceptible to infection in general, whether they were breastfed (breastfeeding protects against UTI), and if their foreskins had been forcibly retracted (which can introduce harmful bacteria and cause UTI) (Pisacane 1990). There have been many studies since which show either no decrease in UTI with circumcision, or else an increase in UTI from circumcision. Thus circumcision is not recommended to prevent UTI (Thompson 1990). Girls have higher rates of UTI than boys, and yet when a girl gets a UTI, she is simply prescribed antibiotics. The same treatment works for boys.
    Myth: Circumcision prevents HIV/AIDS.Reality check: Three studies in Africa several years ago that claimed that circumcision prevented AIDS and that circumcision was as effective as a 60% effective vaccine (Auvert 2005, 2006). These studies had many flaws, including that they were stopped before all the results came in. There have also been several studies that show that circumcision does not prevent HIV (Connolly 2008). There are many issues at play in the spread of STDs which make it very hard to generalize results from one population to another. In Africa, where the recent studies have been done, most HIV transmission is through male-female sex, but in the USA, it is mainly transmitted through blood exposure (like needle sharing) and male-male sex. Male circumcision does not protect women from acquiring HIV, nor does it protect men who havesex with men (Wawer 2009, Jameson 2009).What's worse, because of the publicity surrounding the African studies, men in Africa are now starting to believe that if they are circumcised, they do not need to wear condoms, which will increase the spread of HIV (Westercamp 2010). Even in the study with the most favorable effects of circumcision, the protective effect was only 60% - men would still have to wear condoms to protect themselves and their partners from HIV. In the USA, during the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 90s, about 85% of adult men were circumcised (much higher rates of circumcision than in Africa), and yet HIV still spread. It is important to understand, too, that the men in the African studies were adults and they volunteered for circumcision. Babies undergoing circumcision were not given the choice to decide for themselves.

    Let's not forget to look at what the NHS says:
    '...there are much more effective and less invasive ways of preventing these conditions. For example, practising good hygiene to prevent UTIs, or using a condom to prevent STIs.'
    'Most healthcare professionals maintain that the potential benefits of circumcision are not strong enough to justify routine childhood circumcision.'
    ...medical reasons, although alternative treatments are usually preferred to circumcision
    ...In such cases, circumcision is usually regarded as a "treatment of last resort", when all other treatment options have failed.

    ---

    Last but not least, this is not 'UKIP trying to do very right-wing things' - members from Labour, Conservative, Green, Liberal, and Social parties, ie all parties, have expressed support for the bill.
    Mother of God, you know so much about this subject it's scary:eek:

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    (Original post by Andy98)
    Mother of God, you know so much about this subject it's scary:eek:

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    Some people do have weird fetishes and interests after all
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    (Original post by Andy98)
    Mother of God, you know so much about this subject it's scary:eek:

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    I suppose someone has to, just like with everything else
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    RayApparently Can you change my vote from aye to abstain please.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    RayApparently Can you change my vote from aye to abstain please.
    I have amended the totals accordingly.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Some people do have weird fetishes and interests after all
    Rule 34

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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    I suppose someone has to, just like with everything else
    True

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    RayApparently


    Can Josb's and emiloujess's votes be removed as they are not MPs. Can they also be removed from the Usergroup to prevent confusion. I posted a full list of MPs in the Liberal Party QT a day or two ago
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    RayApparently


    Can Josb's and emiloujess's votes be removed as they are not MPs. Can they also be removed from the Usergroup to prevent confusion. I posted a full list of MPs in the Liberal Party QT a day or two ago
    Will do. It would be helpful if in future you alerted me to the specific changes.
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    Josb and emiloujess have had their votes removed.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Will do. It would be helpful if in future you alerted me to the specific changes.
    I did, in the Liberal Party Question Time thread. I'm sure I tagged you but apologies if I did not


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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I did, in the Liberal Party Question Time thread. I'm sure I tagged you but apologies if I did not


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    Perhaps I missed it, I don't remember the change.
 
 
 
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