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B923 - United Ireland/Northern Ireland Abolition Bill 2016 Watch

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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Nay ! i will not support the break up of the union
    Please read through the notes. It explains why NI is an unnecessary economic leech that we have kept and in the process lost millions in the name of nationalism.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Sinn Féin, a nationalist party, is now the largest in Ireland.
    Really? Are you Irish? Have you actually ever been to meet people to find out whether they do or not?
    As a native I know from my family in Munster, Dublin and Fermanagh, all who ultimately support a UI - some in the long term, most in the short term.
    I am an Irish citizen, yes. The SNP is the largest party in Scotland, that doesn't mean everyone who votes for them wants independence - the same is true for Sinn Féin. Most Irish people really couldn't give two hoots about NI.
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    Nay. The people of Northern Ireland do not want a united ireland.


    As Ian Paisley said... Never Never Never
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    Nay. The Union should never be broken.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    I am an Irish citizen, yes. The SNP is the largest party in Scotland, that doesn't mean everyone who votes for them wants independence - the same is true for Sinn Féin. Most Irish people really couldn't give two hoots about NI.
    Citizenship is not what I was asking. The SNP is not the same as Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin fixates on republicanism as part of their politics, the SNP mentions it. Sinn Féin recently took part in a guerrilla war as the political wing of a paramilitary organisation.
    The SNP....haven't done that.

    Irish people have demonstrated by their protest at Moore Street and mass participation in the 1916 centenary celebrations that they do ultimately want to see a UI, at least in memory of the volunteers from 1916.
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Nay. The people of Northern Ireland do not want a united ireland.


    As Ian Paisley said... Never Never Never
    Come on.
    Ian Paisley - the same man who burst into a meeting of the European Parliament hosting the Pope and called him an Antichrist?
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Nay. The people of Northern Ireland do not want a united ireland.


    As Ian Paisley said... Never Never Never
    In the last GE ~38.8% of people voted for republican parties
    ~45.5% of people voted for Unionist parties (48.1% if you include UKIP but I think most of their votes would be anti-Europe sentiment.
    ~10.8% of people voted for parties with no official stance on the Union. I think that proves that the matter is far from certain.

    Not counting the 2.7% who voted for indies who I'm not sure what their positions were.
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    The people of NI want to stay in the Union
    The Union wants them to stay in the Union
    The people of Eire should be consulted as well in any event

    This referendum would be a waste of money in determining what is already a foregone conclusion in the answer to a question which a patriotic government should not be asking in the first place.
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    I am a legal citizen of both the Republic of Ireland and the UK through my father's side.

    The division of Ireland has caused a large amount of damage to my family. My Grandmother had to leave Ireland when she got married because it was to an English Protestant soldier. She was a Catholic. She never returned and to my knowledge, she was never reunited with her family.

    The division of Ireland has caused untold misery to families like mine. Had Ireland been united, Grandma wouldn't have had to leave. She left because the IRA threatened her because they viewed her as a traitor because of the man she fell in love with and stayed in love with for the rest of her life.

    Do not try to make this about religion. It isn't. The independence movement was sparked by the grave wrongs the British people did to the Irish. Religious divides in this instance are coincidental.

    I believe that with a united Ireland, my family would not have been divided. It is for this reason that I am Ayeing this bill.

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    (Original post by Aph)
    In the last GE ~38.8% of people voted for republican parties
    ~45.5% of people voted for Unionist parties (48.1% if you include UKIP but I think most of their votes would be anti-Europe sentiment.
    ~10.8% of people voted for parties with no official stance on the Union. I think that proves that the matter is far from certain.

    Not counting the 2.7% who voted for indies who I'm not sure what their positions were.
    This is disingenuous. People vote for parties because of their positions on a whole range of issues, economic, environmental, social...you cannot equate a vote for a 'Republican' or 'Unionist' party as a vote to leave or stay in the Union.

    According to the BBC, just 13% of people in Northern Ireland want a United Ireland 'in the short to medium term'. 30% want it in their lifetime. In the last referendum held on this issue in NI, no less than 98.9% voted to stay in the Union.

    I cannot think of a single other issue that might realistically be put to a referendum in the UK that is less suitable than Northern Ireland's relationship with the Union. Referendums should never be called when the people who will vote in them are overwhelmingly on one side of the argument.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Citizenship is not what I was asking. The SNP is not the same as Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin fixates on republicanism as part of their politics, the SNP mentions it. Sinn Féin recently took part in a guerrilla war as the political wing of a paramilitary organisation.
    The SNP....haven't done that.

    Irish people have demonstrated by their protest at Moore Street and mass participation in the 1916 centenary celebrations that they do ultimately want to see a UI, at least in memory of the volunteers from 1916.
    What do you mean citizenship is not what you're asking. You asked if I was Irish. Having Irish citizenship means you are Irish. The SNP want independence just as much as Sinn Féin.

    (Original post by Katty3)
    I am a legal citizen of both the Republic of Ireland and the UK through my father's side.

    The division of Ireland has caused a large amount of damage to my family. My Grandmother had to leave Ireland when she got married because it was to an English Protestant soldier. She was a Catholic. She never returned and to my knowledge, she was never reunited with her family.

    The division of Ireland has caused untold misery to families like mine. Had Ireland been united, Grandma wouldn't have had to leave. She left because the IRA threatened her because they viewed her as a traitor because of the man she fell in love with and stayed in love with for the rest of her life.

    Do not try to make this about religion. It isn't. The independence movement was sparked by the grave wrongs the British people did to the Irish. Religious divides in this instance are coincidental.

    I believe that with a united Ireland, my family would not have been divided. It is for this reason that I am Ayeing this bill.

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    Your family history does not trump the sovereign will of the Northern Irish people. They don't want to leave Britain, so there is no need for a referendum. What "grave wrongs" did the British do to the Irish?
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    (Original post by a noble chance)
    This is disingenuous. People vote for parties because of their positions on a whole range of issues, economic, environmental, social...you cannot equate a vote for a 'Republican' or 'Unionist' party as a vote to leave or stay in the Union.

    According to the BBC, just 13% of people in Northern Ireland want a United Ireland 'in the short to medium term'. 30% want it in their lifetime. In the last referendum held on this issue in NI, no less than 98.9% voted to stay in the Union.

    I cannot think of a single other issue that might realistically be put to a referendum in the UK that is less suitable than Northern Ireland's relationship with the Union. Referendums should never be called when the people who will vote in them are overwhelmingly on one side of the argument.
    Well you have Sinn Fein who you have to admit that no one would vote for unless they wanted a United Ireland.

    In terms of the SDLP it does seem to be the only leftist party in NI other then SF so I would concede that they might just get general left wing votes.
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    (Original post by Katty3)
    I believe that with a united Ireland, my family would not have been divided. It is for this reason that I am Ayeing this bill.
    You wouldn't be here to vote aye if Ireland had been united.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Well you have Sinn Fein who you have to admit that no one would vote for unless they wanted a United Ireland.

    In terms of the SDLP it does seem to be the only leftist party in NI other then SF so I would concede that they might just get general left wing votes.
    The only reason you are using the votes for parties as evidence of Republican feeling in NI is that it is a more favourable picture to you than the answer given by the people of NI when asked the question alone

    13% want it in the short to medium term
    30% want it in their lifetimes

    It is therefore reasonable to forecast that between 87-70% of voters in such a referendum would vote to stay in the Union, depending on when it was given and what the handover timetable was. It is not practical to spend tens of millions of pounds to reach what is already a foregone conclusion.
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    (Original post by a noble chance)
    The only reason you are using the votes for parties as evidence of Republican feeling in NI is that it is a more favourable picture to you than the answer given by the people of NI when asked the question alone

    13% want it in the short to medium term
    30% want it in their lifetimes

    It is therefore reasonable to forecast that between 87-70% of voters in such a referendum would vote to stay in the Union, depending on when it was given and what the handover timetable was. It is not practical to spend tens of millions of pounds to reach what is already a foregone conclusion.
    And what was the predictions for the Scottish referendum? As I recall it was about 20% when it ended up as 45%.

    Also, for future reference whenever you cite a fact you should give a reference.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Can't say I'm a fan of cutting up the Union, even if it does significantly improve the stats of the rest of the nation and remove a major thorn in the side.
    Hey, I live there.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Your family history does not trump the sovereign will of the Northern Irish people. They don't want to leave Britain, so there is no need for a referendum. What "grave wrongs" did the British do to the Irish?
    I never said that my family history did trump the will of the Irish people. I said that was the reason I believe in a united Ireland and voted for this bill. How do you know that they don't want to leave if you don't ask them?

    Have you heard of the Potato Famine? That killed a lot of the Irish. It was the fault of the English landowners who refused to allow the Irish people to keep their other crops.

    Have you heard of the Bloody Sunday massacre? That was a wrong that the British did to the Irish.

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    As already said the northern Irish people want to remain in the union . The union want them to remain in the union. It a waste of money
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    While I could never vote nay on such a bill, I am unsure if now is the best time
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    (Original post by Aph)
    And what was the predictions for the Scottish referendum? As I recall it was about 20% when it ended up as 45%.

    Also, for future reference whenever you cite a fact you should give a reference.
    Oh, the irony...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-34725746

    There are several differences with Scotland.

    The most important is that the SNP had an overwhelming mandate to demand a referendum from Westminster, having won almost every Scottish seat on a platform of Scottish independence. Westminster did not have a choice.

    The second is that it had not had a referendum on this issue within the lifetimes of most of its popultaion in which all but 1.1% of voters voted to remain part of the Union.

    The third is that Scotland cared and cares a great deal more about this issue than Northern Ireland did and does. The turnout in the Irish general election in 1973 was 76.6%, and 72.8% in the UK general election the following year. Turnout in the 1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum was 58.6% and I am sure it would be below 50% if held today. In the Scottish independence referendum of 2014 it was 84.6%.

    The fourth is that there was and is a much smaller gap between support for unionism and independence in Scotland than in Northern Ireland. The previous referendum and every poll ever taken on the issue is unwavering evidence that Northern Ireland's answer to this question is a foregone conclusion. In Scotland it was never a foregone conclusion. Unionists were usually, but not always, leading the polls, with a margin of difference of between 1%-28%, and usually in the range of 10-20% (Wikipedia). This gap closed as the referendum drew nearer but it was smaller to begin with. In Northern Ireland the margin of difference was 98% in the 1973 referendum, and according to the BBC and other organisations it is 70-90% today, depending on what timetable is put to them. You cannot seriously anticipate that this gap will close within weeks to such an extent as to throw the result into doubt.

    There is no comparison and this referendum cannot be justified.
 
 
 
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