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David Cameron on UK Muslim Communities: "We won’t let women be second-class citizens" Watch

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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I see you are building from straw again

    none of your posts are relevant to the OP

    we are talking about muslim women who have chosen and been accepted into the UK are you worried because you know family who might be affected negatively because of this?
    And they are supposed to feel grateful for this?
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    And they are supposed to feel grateful for this?
    Yes

    After all it's not like we are forcing them to become citizens

    I'm correct, am I not, that they don't have to if they don't want to
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Yes if that's what Dubai wants but as far as I am aware none of the people who work in Dubai are allowed to become actual citizens

    https://www.justlanded.com/english/D...ts/Citizenship

    But I have no issue with any country saying if you want to be a citizen you must be able to speak the local language

    Do you?
    I think there was something in the news today about deporting wives of people who work there or something

    Imo if you're going to live in the country you should speak the local language, citizen or not. Obviously if you're on a business trip or whatever it doesn't matter but actually living there you should learn the local language
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    Girlfriend is a feminist now is he :lol:
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    Why is everyone fixating on the 'deportation' threat? Cameron said if people apply to live here as a fully paid up citizen then they would need to pass a language test.

    We all know that access to education and information is vital to empower the individual. We also know there is a real and present problem within some cultures where wonen are denied access because it suits the propagation of mysoginist attitudes and practices, fosters a victimhood mentality and continues to exert control.

    In this way, women are denied the basics of freedom to choose and are completely under the thumb of their spouse and male relations.

    Look past the puerile arguments of language double standards and try to understand why learning English in Britain is so vitally important if we truly want to break the stranglehold of backwards and hidden mysoginy practiced behind closed doors.
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    I think there was something in the news today about deporting wives of people who work there or something

    Imo if you're going to live in the country you should speak the local language, citizen or not. Obviously if you're on a business trip or whatever it doesn't matter but actually living there you should learn the local language
    A link would be good

    But yes you are right you should make the effort and it's not wrong making it a condition of citizenship for those who CHOOSE this option.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Yes

    After all it's not like we are forcing them to become citizens

    I'm correct, am I not, that they don't have to if they don't want to
    Someone puts a gun to your head, cocks the hammer, pulls the trigger and you're supposed to feel grateful that they didn't have a bullet chambered?
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Someone puts a gun to your head, cocks the hammer, pulls the trigger and you're supposed to feel grateful that they didn't have a bullet chambered?
    Is this how you think we make people apply for citizenship
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    (Original post by uberteknik)
    Why is everyone fixating on the 'deportation' threat? Cameron said if people apply to live here as a fully paid up citizen then they would need to pass a language test.

    We all know that access to education and information is vital to empower the individual. We also know there is a real and present problem within some cultures where wonen are denied access because it suits the propagation of mysoginist attitudes and practices, fosters a victimhood mentality and continues to exert control.

    In this way, women are denied the basics of freedom to choose and are completely under the thumb of their spouse and male relations.

    Look past the puerile arguments of language double standards and try to understand why learning English in Britain is so vitally important if we truly want to break the stranglehold of backwards and hidden mysoginy practiced behind closed doors.
    Cameron wants to turn people into tradeable commodities. That is the issue.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I also know someone who can't speak a word of Indian who lived in India for two years. Luckily they spoke English!

    Look. Our language is everywhere. Stop moaning and get this stick out our collective arse about people not being able to speak perfect english when we are so useless as a nation in being able to speak other languages at the same time as our language is taking over the world.
    I suppose you are aware then, that there is no such language as "indian", and there are numerous unrelated languages used in different parts of the country, and one of the really unifying languages is, in fact, english.

    In anycase, people should be expected to learn the language of their host country, or enought to attempt at intergration. English speakers have it easier due to british and american hegemony, but if you cannot communicate outside of your family or community, that is a problem, specifically if you intend to settle.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Is this how you think we make people apply for citizenship
    The grateful part, yeah.

    We hang it over the heads of many people, especially migrants, refugees, and asylum seekers, for years on end.
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    Not every Muslim woman wants or needs to work in a fluent English speaking environment. Most are housewives and look after the children so don't need to learn English as they would not speak to others anyway unless its an emergency.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    The grateful part, yeah.

    We hang it over the heads of many people, especially migrants, refugees, and asylum seekers, for years on end.
    They could always choose to go elsewhere
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    They could always choose to go elsewhere
    Oh yes, when someone is unable to counteract arguments made, it usually ends in a "Oh **** off if you don't like it" and a whole ball of spluttering and spit.
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    "190,000 British Muslim women – or 22 per cent"

    There are around 1.3 million Muslim women in the UK. 190,000 is not 22%. I think the government may need to employ a statistician with at least a GCSE in maths. And the general population should stop accepting stats without applying some really basic critical thinking.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Oh yes, when someone is unable to counteract arguments made, it usually ends in a "Oh **** off if you don't like it" and a whole ball of spluttering and spit.
    You've made no arguments related to the OP

    You've made a few hysterical statements that have little bearing in reality (comparing the choice of wanting citizenship with having a gun held to your head)

    Then you end with a personal attack again one that has little to do with reality

    Par of the course of course but still...
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    (Original post by digistar_100)
    Not every Muslim woman wants or needs to work in a fluent English speaking environment. Most are housewives and look after the children so don't need to learn English as they would not speak to others anyway unless its an emergency.
    No-one is advocating removal of the right to freedom of choice.

    The issue is that refusing to learn English can be seen as a refusal to integrate and accept the laws and customs of this country. Most importantly it could indicate male and cultural domination to prevent access to basic rights and the freedom to choose.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    You've made no arguments related to the OP

    You've made a few hysterical statements that have little bearing in reality (comparing the choice of wanting citizenship with having a gun held to your head)

    Then you end with a personal attack again one that has little to do with reality

    Par of the course of course but still...
    I have nothing further to say to you but if you feel inclined to carry on discussing, I suggest you find someone else to brainwash.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I have nothing further to say to you but if you feel inclined to carry on discussing, I suggest you find someone else to brainwash.
    Bless you
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    Over simplification of a complicated issue. People who immigrate to Britain for refuge, asylum or emigrational purposes do not 'become British'. If they are Syrian, they are Syrian. If they are Pakistani, they are Pakistani.

    Pakistan and Syria (to name two examples) are two countries with completely different values to ours: heavily patriarchal with a strong focus on women's inferiority. This does not make them 'bad' or 'evil' countries. A country can still have beautiful elements in amongst its faults. We were an imperial nation who decimated local populaces across large parts of Africa, Oceania and North America and we still pride ourselves of 'greatness', do we not?

    No matter how gently phrased, this is an ultimatum. Learn English or deportation. That is the reason why some focus in on this aspect. If we pride ourselves as feminists then why do we threaten and belittle women who may find it difficult to learn the language for a multitude of reasons, be it age and ability or a deterrent at home in the form of a patriarchal force. If these people haven't known anything else for several years of their lives, it is not going to be easy to comprehend instantaneously our society on arrival in Britain.

    If we are an inclusive society, why do we not make more effort to help integrate them into our wider communities? 'More classes' is a step towards this but it will not help with the friendship and companionship these women seek and may only find in women of a mutual tongue, or in some unfortunate circumstances not at all. If we made more effort to learn their language as they learnt ours in a form cultural exchange and shared and embraced each others cultures these people would find it a lot easier to integrate into our society.

    We should not demonize their backgrounds as 'Pakistani' or 'Syrian' and claim to embrace all of our British values is some kind of saintly path. In most cases these people are extremely proud of their backgrounds and care more for them than for a British identity, often being forced here under extenuating circumstance. If there was war or poverty where you lived and you were forced into a different climate with a different language and different customs to follow you would probably feel bewildered, confused and lost, rather than 'grateful'. Put yourselves in their shoes and try to understand their issues and resistance from an empathetic perspective.
 
 
 
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