Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Corbyn refers to ISIS' "strong points" and alludes to giving up Falklands Watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    To some extent, Cammie/Ossie are currently thriving because they stole some clothes of the Left, at least on paper and in spin - for example, claiming they are the 'party of the working class', etc. This only works if they leave a morsel of truth in it, which they are doing in places, but as their policies bite, things will get clearer. For example, today we read that the housing benefit cuts are about to ditch 50,000 disabled and very frail elderly people onto the street.

    There's a lack of leadership across the progressive side. I don't disagree actually that Corbyn is a bit of a joke in office (he plainly isn't up to it and is very stuck in 1970s political mindsets) but there aren't exactly a plethora of charismatic alternatives. Blair at least was popular as a politician because he did look like a leader, although in reality, behind closed doors, he was frequently dithering, unable to lead and easily led. (Hence for example his continued failure to dump Brown, despite the overt plotting to undermine him that lasted for years, because he couldn't face the trouble it would cause - it ended up destroying Labour's chances.)

    The truth is that the progressive end of politics needs time to reconsider, to shape new policies and bring forward new leaders. Maybe they will come from Labour, but I doubt it. There's a big change going on and it could just as easily be from the Green side of things or from new and alternative forces where the leadership comes. It does need to be a leadership that speaks to modern audiences, that can hold working class attention and be realistic, but also progressive.
    I don't think you can call Blair a ditherer for not sacking Brown. The Granada deal was the only reason he became PM and Brown would easily have had the party on his side had Blair tried to oust him.

    In fact, when in office, it was Brown who became known for being a serial ditherer who simply couldnt make timely decisions.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    I think it would have been reasonably effective in turning the discourse from 'watch out, labour are going to hook up with the SNP' to 'watch out, the Tories are going to win'. I understand that the flaws in the methodologies of the public polls weren't known at the time, so the point about it being assumed to be wrong makes some sense. Still, it would have drawn enough attention away from the hung parliament narrative to open up more space for other things, I think.

    I think you might be waiting a while. I realise you probably think so too. I've seen a lot of Corbynites take pride in the fact that they're ignoring electoral concerns and standing up for their principles (which is obviously worth nothing if they don't have the power to act, but that doesn't seem to matter to them). It's a tough spot which can mostly be blamed on the idiot members of the PLP who gave away their crucial bit of control by nominating Corbyn to 'widen the debate'.
    Yeah I don't really know why they didn't release it either tbh. It just wasn't super complete until it was a bit too late I think.

    Oh yeah I know that, we've definiteley got another 10 long Tory years, if not more. Agreed. Was a stab in the heart when Neil Coyle, who I'd spent months campaigning for, nominated him. Mary Creagh is kicking herself for dropping out of the race. Part of the reason I can't get particularly invested in the mayorals is the fact Sadiq was dumb enough to nominate Jeremy. Corbynites don't actually care that people are dying because of their actions.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EtherealNymph22)
    I'd be up for doorstepping tbh- but not sure where to start- especially in Scotland. What do you do? Do people like talking about it and are they generally approachable when you doorstep them?

    My points about being good for democracy kind of feel redundant because even if he is engaging more people- the fact he's turned the political options into a one horse race is BAD for democracy. Thank you for your comments and the time to educate and enlighten me

    And this is particularly important given that the one horse is the Torys because I know and completely agree with what they are doing to social services, housing, energy and healthcare (and the rest). I can see why he's actually a threat to Britain now, by making the Conservatives the only electable option.

    Also, I'm originally from the South-West and I agree- it is very weird down there.
    Just join a party and get involved - they'll have regular doorknocking sessions generally at weekends You just knock up and ask who they're voting for. Then they can talk to you or not as you/they wish. Some.people are disks, most people are OK. Since Corbyn there's been more angry people and Tories laughing at us I'd say.

    Literally I have tried to understand voting in the South West so many times and still have no idea

    Although a word of warning - I've heard SNP voters can be pretty harsh on the doorstep
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    I don't think you can call Blair a ditherer for not sacking Brown. The Granada deal was the only reason he became PM and Brown would easily have had the party on his side had Blair tried to oust him.

    In fact, when in office, it was Brown who became known for being a serial ditherer who simply couldnt make timely decisions.
    Blair was certainly less of a ditherer than Brown, but he was also desperately at the mercy of different advisors and whimsical notions. He would announce major shifts in policy without checking in with any part of the party or cabinet, because some random person or source he liked and admired had recommended it. He seems to have basically been fodder for the Washington Republican machine when it came to the war planning and the responses to 9/11. He did also dither a lot and at crucial moments. He surrendered major pieces of decision making to wholly inappropriate people, most memorably, placing Alastair Campbell, former porn writer and Daily Mirror hack, in charge of the national security assessments.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    To some extent, Cammie/Ossie are currently thriving because they stole some clothes of the Left, at least on paper and in spin - for example, claiming they are the 'party of the working class', etc. This only works if they leave a morsel of truth in it, which they are doing in places, but as their policies bite, things will get clearer. For example, today we read that the housing benefit cuts are about to ditch 50,000 disabled and very frail elderly people onto the street.

    There's a lack of leadership across the progressive side. I don't disagree actually that Corbyn is a bit of a joke in office (he plainly isn't up to it and is very stuck in 1970s political mindsets) but there aren't exactly a plethora of charismatic alternatives. Blair at least was popular as a politician because he did look like a leader, although in reality, behind closed doors, he was frequently dithering, unable to lead and easily led. (Hence for example his continued failure to dump Brown, despite the overt plotting to undermine him that lasted for years, because he couldn't face the trouble it would cause - it ended up destroying Labour's chances.)

    The truth is that the progressive end of politics needs time to reconsider, to shape new policies and bring forward new leaders. Maybe they will come from Labour, but I doubt it. There's a big change going on and it could just as easily be from the Green side of things or from new and alternative forces where the leadership comes. It does need to be a leadership that speaks to modern audiences, that can hold working class attention and be realistic, but also progressive.
    Greens?!? Now that really is deluded. If any political faction is dead in the water it's them (well, and the Bnp)
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by redferry)
    Greens?!? Now that really is deluded. If any political faction is dead in the water it's them (well, and the Bnp)
    Although, strangely, their vote rose from 285,000 to 1.1m in the general election. Not bad for a movement dead in the water. :teehee:
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Although, strangely, their vote rose from 285,000 to 1.1m in the general election. Not bad for a movement dead in the water. :teehee:
    Still nowhere near enough to make a serious impact in a general election. In order to do that, it would surely have to take a lot more of labour's vote, some amount of which (not nearly enough to carry it to a GE victory) is deeply entrenched.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Although, strangely, their vote rose from 285,000 to 1.1m in the general election. Not bad for a movement dead in the water. :teehee:
    Yeah but most of their support and a lot of their activists have moved over to Labour now that Jezza is leader. Last polling round I think they were down at around 2%

    I know a lot of greens through my lime of work and they agree they're in the ****
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Still nowhere near enough to make a serious impact in a general election. In order to do that, it would surely have to take a lot more of labour's vote, some amount of which (not nearly enough to carry it to a GE victory) is deeply entrenched.
    I don't think half the votes now are anything like as entrenched as they used to be, probably more than half.

    A real leader coming forwards on the Green side would do well - there is a growing awareness of the depth of problems now confronting the world. Hence the same old 'growth will solve everything and arms sales will fix the rest' formulas that both Tory and Labour parties have followed in office are increasingly unconvincing. Look at Trident, which despite best Tory (and Labour Right) efforts to portray as a dog whistle patriotism issue is leaving almost a majority of voters unconvinced.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't think half the votes now are anything like as entrenched as they used to be, probably more than half.

    A real leader coming forwards on the Green side would do well - there is a growing awareness of the depth of problems now confronting the world. Hence the same old 'growth will solve everything and arms sales will fix the rest' formulas that both Tory and Labour parties have followed in office are increasingly unconvincing. Look at Trident, which despite best Tory (and Labour Right) efforts to portray as a dog whistle patriotism issue is leaving almost a majority of voters unconvinced.
    I just can't see where the votes are going to come from. How much of the polling showing growing progressive standpoints on particular issues does so on issues which polling indicates are among the important issues which will actually determine how people vote? You can't sweep to victory on trident or, unfortunately, the environment. Even assuming that the Greens could set up a platform with wide enough appeal (which would presumably have to be wide enough to capture left wing lib dems and even present UKIP and Tory votes), it would take an exceptional leader to power them through to do anything other than split the left wing vote away from labour, because, as we've agreed, some of the vote will inevitably stay there, in the short to medium term at least.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    He said he wants to split up the falklands and give argentina half, even though none of the people there want to be part of argentina, argentina never had any people on the islands, we discovered and colonised them, all the people are our people...
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Although, strangely, their vote rose from 285,000 to 1.1m in the general election. Not bad for a movement dead in the water. :teehee:
    An irrelevant vote number in a FPTP system. (Ask UKIP!) The Greens will never amount to anything until and unless we get PR.

    British General Elections are won from the centre (wherever that is at the time, obviously it moves) and the current centre of politics is way to the right of even Ed M's Labour.

    With the current national preoccupation with mass immigration and economic competence the Progressive side of the debate is going to have to make compromises (or plausibly pretend to at least) if it wants to get back into Government any time soon.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Squirrel777)
    It's only right that the Labour Party has a shuffle and clean up. With the boundary changes it will help to push out false Labour MPs in favour of real left wing socialists. I think groups like momentum are good in transforming the Labour Party. You were part of the old generation, we need progressives in the party if there is going to be real change. MPs like yvette cooper and Benn have no place in the party. We need more people like McDonnell, Corbyn and Abbott to take their place.

    If you actually cared about the Labour Party, you would support the changes
    You are absolutely bonkers.

    I don't often wish ill on others, but I very much hope that when Labour selects its new leader in 2020, your group of über-arrogant, aggressive Momentum-types are ground into the dirt and humiliated.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by redferry)
    The membership don't want it so he can't be gotten rid of unfortunateley. So it'll be Tories again next time. I apologise - we ****ed up big time
    Sometimes I think a lot of those who voted Corbyn in the leadership election were Tories and possibly anarchists.

    The Tories knew electing Corbyn would ruin the Labour Party and make it unelectable and that Corbyn would eradicate the Blairite centrists putting labour back into its 1980s mess.

    The Tories got what they wanted.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    Sometimes I think a lot of those who voted Corbyn in the leadership election were Tories and possibly anarchists.

    The Tories knew electing Corbyn would ruin the Labour Party and make it unelectable and that Corbyn would eradicate the Blairite centrists putting labour back into its 1980s mess.

    The Tories got what they wanted.
    Didn't Corbyn win a majority even with the pre-existing membership?

    I know a few Tories signed up as £3 voters but the numbers can't have altered the final result.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    You are absolutely bonkers.

    I don't often wish ill on others, but I very much hope that when Labour selects its new leader in 2020, your group of über-arrogant, aggressive Momentum-types are ground into the dirt and humiliated.
    Jeremy has a real chance of winning a large majority in 2020. People like redferry know this (if they really are campaigners) but reject socialist and left wing policies in favour of their right wing policies, so they pretend it is not true.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Although, strangely, their vote rose from 285,000 to 1.1m in the general election. Not bad for a movement dead in the water. :teehee:
    And three and a half times less than another fringe party who don't even believee climate change exists...........

    Besides, the Green vote (ie middle-class students, hipsters and other such sanctimonious people with little concept of responsibility) got hoovered up by the Corbyn fad.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Squirrel777)
    Jeremy has a real chance of winning a large majority in 2020. People like redferry know this (if they really are campaigners) but reject socialist and left wing policies in favour of their right wing policies, so they pretend it is not true.
    I literally cannot believe I'm hearing this.

    Assuming, of course, you're not a troll.

    Please, let's hear your argument as to how Corbyn 'has a real chance of winning a large majority in 2020'.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Squirrel777)
    Jeremy has a real chance of winning a large majority in 2020. People like redferry know this (if they really are campaigners) but reject socialist and left wing policies in favour of their right wing policies, so they pretend it is not true.
    Tell you what pal; how about you walk into a few pubs, knock on a hundred random doors (anywhere in the country you like), cafes, town centres.........anywhere with people............and tell them about how giving up the Falklands is a good idea, that terrorism is caused by us, that the IRA were right and that the best thing for this country is to live by 1970s Labour economics. Then come on here and tell us all that these things have widespread support among the public and that an entity espousing these things will overturn a massive Conservative majority.

    Honestly, you people need to grasp the concept that the electorate isn't the same thing as your Facebook feed, the Guardian's editorial team and your uni halls of residence. Get over your delusions and join us in the real world.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Instead of being blindly drawn in by your spin I read the quotes, how anyone can find what he said disagreeable is beyond me. He didn't say we should bow down and kiss the feet of ISIS, he said a line of communication should be retained, this is rational and sensible.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: February 3, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Break up or unrequited love?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.