V923 - United Ireland/Northern Ireland Abolition Bill 2016

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Poll: Should this bill be passed into law?
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On the contrary, No (30)
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Abstain (7)
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RayApparently
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V923 - United Ireland/Northern Ireland Abolition Bill 2016, TSR Socialist Party

United Ireland/Northern Ireland Abolition Bill 2016
A Bill to provide for a referendum to unite the states of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

BE IT ENACTED by The Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, in accordance with the provisions of the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

1. Referendum in the Northern Ireland Assembly for the abolition of the province of Northern Ireland
The province of Northern Ireland will have a referendum to unify with the Republic of Ireland to create the All-Ireland Federal RepublicThis referendum will be binding on the governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

2. Definitions
For the purposes of this act:
1) "MLAs" are Members of the Legislative Assembly (NI Assembly)
2) "Oireachtas" is the parliament of the Republic of Ireland
3) The "All-Ireland Federal Republic" is the proposed four province federal Ireland, with a self-governing federal parliament in each of the four provinces: Ulster, Connacht, Munster and Leinster. Each of these parliaments would deal with the governance of their respective province as part of the creation of an Ireland of self-governing communities in which people control their own affairs.

3. Conditions
1) Conditions of Referendum
The following shall be treated as conditions precedent to the referendum taking place:
a) agreement by the Oireachtas to the unification of Ireland.
b) agreement of the members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and those of the Oireachtas on the wording of the Referendum Question.

2) Conditions of disestablishment
The following shall be treated as conditions precedent to the disestablishment of the Northern Irish province:
a) a majority of voters in the referendum voting in favour of disestablishment;
b) a secular All-Ireland Federal Republic being established;
c) the new state being secular;
d) a codified constitution which protects the rights of all citizens being drawn up by representatives from each Federal province

5. Commencement, short title and extent
(1) This Act may be cited as the United Ireland Act 2016
(2) This bill shall extend to Northern Ireland;
(3) This bill shall come into force immediately following Royal Assent;
(4) The agreement of the referendum's wording shall take place no later than 1 month from the bill's passing;
(5) The referendum shall take place no later than 6 months after the agreement of the referendum's wording; and
(6) The formation of the new state shall take place no later than 18 months from the referendum's passing.

Notes: A secular All-Ireland Federal Republic must be established for the elimination of the chance of a unionist minority being marginalised in an all-Ireland parliament.The motive behind the Federal proposal is to be fair to all sections of the country. This unification is against the domination of Ireland by the Westminster Parliament and the European Union. The people who are currently described as Unionist are a part of the Irish nation. Their concerns about domination by Dublin in a unitary State of all Ireland should be listened to, and are in fact shared by the so-called ‘peripheral’ regions in the 26-County area, such as the Gaeltacht regions in the West. This federal parliamentary system would put to end this concern, as well as the concern of ‘Rome Rule’, which has been ended by the condition of a secular state.Moreover, the problem of more extreme unionists(loyalists) has risen again. They started the Troubles in 1969 and are stirring up more in recent years. Loyalists who have set a firm precedent for violence. Loyalists who have subverted democracy and inverted what it is to be British. Here's the critical issue. They're taking all of Northern Ireland with them. They've done untold damage to the economy and untold damage to inward investment.Furthermore, if another civil war began in Northern Ireland it would seriously decrease the Armed Forces' readiness for response against other threats and almost definitely cause more civilian and military casualties, as well as cost the British government and taxpayers millions of pounds and damage to Foreign Direct Investment.

N.B. For the purpose of this bill the Canon Amendment is invoked and the MPs shall vote on behalf of the NI Assembly. Republic of Ireland's activity/responses will be assumed as positive to a UI.
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Jammy Duel
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Bills definitely need 2 days
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Jammy Duel
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RayApparently Additional to the above about how this cannot be in division according to the GD, can it be clarified whether an aye would be to hold a referendum, or whether it is a vote to further break down the union?
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RayApparently
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Bills definitely need 2 days
I consider yesterday and the duration of today to constitute the two days indicated by the GD.

(Original post by Jammy Duel)
RayApparently Additional to the above about how this cannot be in division according to the GD, can it be clarified whether an aye would be to hold a referendum, or whether it is a vote to further break down the union?
This is an inappropriate format for a TSR referendum. I would interpret its passing as indication that in the TSR UK, a 'United Ireland' has been created.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by RayApparently)
I consider yesterday and the duration of today to constitute the two days indicated by the GD.
I would say that most people would interpret "two days" to mean 48 hours (give or take) or 2 updates or similar, in essence two whole days rather than having debate having happened on two days, this approach could have a "debate" happening for less than a minute, in theory, with an bill going up just before midnight for day 1, and then almost straight after midnight, i.e. day 2, putting it to division.

This is an inappropriate format for a TSR referendum. I would interpret its passing as indication that in the TSR UK, a 'United Ireland' has been created.
Should it not be made much clearer then that voting in favour of this bill means voting in favour of further breaking up the union rather than this being placed merely as a footnote at the bottom of the bill.
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RayApparently
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
I would say that most people would interpret "two days" to mean 48 hours (give or take) or 2 updates or similar, in essence two whole days rather than having debate having happened on two days, this approach could have a "debate" happening for less than a minute, in theory, with an bill going up just before midnight for day 1, and then almost straight after midnight, i.e. day 2, putting it to division.
In theory but not in practice as I would use my discretion (as I have done here).

Should it not be made much clearer then that voting in favour of this bill means voting in favour of further breaking up the union rather than this being placed merely as a footnote at the bottom of the bill.
Perhaps, but that would be a matter of presentation, something that I will not be intervening in.

I will however make one thing clear for members: The passing of this bill will not result in a TSR Referendum.
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SakuraCayla
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I do think this isn't the time for this bill, but I feel I must vote aye, to vote any other way would be a betrayal of my core values and beliefs
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PetrosAC
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I would have voted Aye and then campaigned for N.I to stay. However, the fact that this automatically creates a United Ireland makes me reconsider my position. I'll abstain for now.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
I do think this isn't the time for this bill, but I feel I must vote aye, to vote any other way would be a betrayal of my core values and beliefs
So you don't think it's time but will do it regardless?

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SakuraCayla
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
So you don't think it's time but will do it regardless?

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I would urge the Socialist party to reconsider putting this bill forward at this time, but if they are intent on doing so it has my support, a united Ireland free from Britain is something my family have supported for generations, and the fire continues burning on inside of me.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
I would urge the Socialist party to reconsider putting this bill forward at this time, but if they are intent on doing so it has my support, a united Ireland free from Britain is something my family have supported for generations, and the fire continues burning on inside of me.
And I would say that a [mostly] peaceful compromise is better than a return to violence, especially given that based on the GE results the unionists are stronger in NI with 11 unionist MPs and 7 nationalist MPs, and over half of votes being cast for unionist parties and candidates.
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SakuraCayla
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And I would say that a [mostly] peaceful compromise is better than a return to violence, especially given that based on the GE results the unionists are stronger in NI with 11 unionist MPs and 7 nationalist MPs, and over half of votes being cast for unionist parties and candidates.
As a Irish Republican I could never vote against giving my fellow comrades a vote in this matter, it is in my opinion a great injustices that Ireland was split up by England at all. I don't want to see this go forward at this time, mostly as I don't feel we have won the argument yet. In any case they have my support on this bill although I am more open to campaigning on this issue than bringing a referendum on this matter now.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
As a Irish Republican I could never vote against giving my fellow comrades a vote in this matter, it is in my opinion a great injustices that Ireland was split up by England at all. I don't want to see this go forward at this time, mostly as I don't feel we have won the argument yet. In any case they have my support on this bill although I am more open to campaigning on this issue than bringing a referendum on this matter now.
And I believe it is a great injustice that not only were dozens of traitors and terrorists spared the hangman's noose, but that they are walking free on the streets of Britain and some are even making our laws.

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SakuraCayla
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And I believe it is a great injustice that not only were dozens of traitors and terrorists spared the hangman's noose, but that they are walking free on the streets of Britain and some are even making our laws.

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Yet they only exist in the form they do because of the original great injustice of having a divided Ireland, had Ireland never been divided the IRA we saw most recently simply wouldn't have happened, as they wouldn't have had a fight to fight.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
Yet they only exist in the form they do because of the original great injustice of having a divided Ireland, had Ireland never been divided the IRA we saw most recently simply wouldn't have happened, as they wouldn't have had a fight to fight.
And the loyalists would have seen no injustice at all? Who is ultimately to blame for a terrorist being a terrorist?

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Saracen's Fez
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I think this needs a review of the effects on the Irish Constitution and ought to have gone for a second reading.

I can't support it as is without that.
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Katty3
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Aye.

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SakuraCayla
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And the loyalists would have seen no injustice at all? Who is ultimately to blame for a terrorist being a terrorist?

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Well given the IRA aren't terrorists, but a Paramilitary, according to the Good Friday Agreement, a Paramilitary some would say were fighting against foreign occupation by armed forces. And moving onto Loyalists, we saw paramilitary action by loyalists during the troubles, they killed, harmed and kidnapped people as well.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Kay_Winters)
Well given the IRA aren't terrorists, but a Paramilitary, according to the Good Friday Agreement, a Paramilitary some would say were fighting against foreign occupation by armed forces. And moving onto Loyalists, we saw paramilitary action by loyalists during the troubles, they killed, harmed and kidnapped people as well.
And a terrorist justifying their actions does not allay the blame from themselves.
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SakuraCayla
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And a terrorist justifying their actions does not allay the blame from themselves.
You miss the point I made, one man's terrorist could easily be seen as another as a freedom fighter, the IRA didn't grow in size after Bloody Sunday for just no reason after all
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