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British people are proud of colonialism and the British Empire, poll finds Watch

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    (Original post by QE2)
    I think most Britons (including myself) would be proud of the Empire as an acheivement, but not proud of all the means by which it was acheived.
    What kind of undertaking would you have been proud of?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I think most come proximally for money, but Britain is rich because it is well governed. Parts of the former empire that are well-governed today (e.g. Hong Kong, Singapore) are not sending a lot of immigrants to the UK.


    Perhaps, but then there's no reason to regard colonialism are particularly bad, or even undesirable today. E.g. if Britain still ruled, say, Kenya today, would Kenya be as poor as it is today? It's weird to suggest that Britain will be very friendly toward Kenyan people living in Britain but not toward Kenyans living in British Kenya.
    And Britain isn't rich because of the empire and colonialism?

    The British governments/forces 'ruling' Kenya doesn't mean they as individuals don't like Kenyans in Kenya. I'm talking about individuals who are proud of colonialism and the Empire probably being those who believe that we should keep migrants and refugees out. Individuals are different from governments.
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    I think this is relevant!

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2tsu0h

    From 2 minutes onwards.
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    (Original post by EtherealNymph22)
    And Britain isn't rich because of the empire and colonialism?
    No, it was able to conquer an empire because it was rich.

    The British governments/forces 'ruling' Kenya doesn't mean they as individuals don't like Kenyans in Kenya. I'm talking about individuals who are proud of colonialism and the Empire probably being those who believe that we should keep migrants and refugees out. Individuals are different from governments.
    You have missed the point. You have said that the British government is benevolent toward Kenyan individuals which is why it is beneficial for Kenyans to move to Britain to live under white British rule. If the British government were to rule Kenya benevolently, why wouldn't it be in the interest of Kenyans to live under white British rule in Kenya?

    The logic behind mass immigration as charitable measure and empire as civilising crusade are the same: we govern the natives better than they govern themselves. I'm not commenting on whether that logic is correct, just that it underlies both ideas.
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    (Original post by EtherealNymph22)
    And Britain isn't rich because of the empire and colonialism?
    That's right. The money from empire accrued to individuals and wealthy families, it's not like the money from empire was used to build roads and hospitals in England that endure to this day.

    If anything, the average British person subsidised through their taxes the Royal Navy and imperial bureaucracy that allowed the British Empire to exist as a trading empire, which benefited the few.

    The idea that the only reason the UK is well-off today is because of stolen wealth is, unfortunately, part of an embittered tendency to make excuses in the third world for their own failures. They like to think the only reason they are poor in India, for example, is because of all this "stolen" money.

    In fact, Britain is a first world country today because like other developed countries it has an excellent education system, low levels of corruption, good infrastructure etc. And former colonies of the empire like Singapore have a GDP per capita that exceeds the UK because they learned the lessons of development.

    India, Kenya, Nigeria etc have to stop blaming their problems on the past and come to grips with the issues that exist in their own countries and particularly amongst their leaders
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    (Original post by HucktheForde)
    The British public are generally proud of their country’s role in subjecting the world to colonialism and the British Empire, according to a new poll.

    At its height in 1922 the British Empire governed a fifth of the world’s population and a quarter of the world’s total land area, but its legacy divides opinion.

    Common criticisms of the empire include its policies causing millions of famine deaths in British India, its running of brutal detention camps in occupied territories, and massacres of civilians by imperial troops.

    The British Empire was also a dominant slave-trading power until the practice was outlawed in 1807, after which the Empire played key a role in ending the practice internationally.

    The Empire’s proponents say it brought economic development to parts of the world and benefited the countries it controlled.

    David Cameron has previously said the Empire should be “celebrated”.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6821206.html

    anyone finds this disturbing?
    I'm thrilled that Cameron believes that the Empire should be celebrated if true (and personally i think that we should mourn its loss). The British Empire took us from an island of no note (actually it was basically England and Wales until union) to one which conquered the globe. How can one not take pleasure in that thought, especially in a world where people like Corbyn don't care at all about international influence.

    (Original post by the bear)
    i am proud of the Empire and am desperately sad that it has been stolen from us.
    Indeed. In my opinion the lack of evolution as opposed to the disbandment which occurred is the second greatest crime that the UK has ever committed. The first of course was in pushing Ireland to leave and separating us from our brethren and i suppose a Scottish exit would take a new second place. The British Isles and perhaps the Anglosphere must be whole again!

    (Original post by al_94)
    Wow British are racist
    Nothing racist about it. Give your country a massive military advantage and see how long your own country remains peaceful for. It's human nature to dominate everything we can from the planet and it's fauna to fellow humans with which we have no emotional attachment to.

    (Original post by EtherealNymph22)
    This is disturbing and upsetting. Why would anyone be 'proud' of colonialism? Probably the same people who want to close our borders to migrants and refugees who are seeking to move from the places that imperialism f***ed in the first place.
    Not at all. I myself support very high immigration levels with states holding about a billion people. Your right that i don't want third worlders here but it's their own cultural values which have kept them primitive and impoverished, they've had 60 years to replicate the success of others and yet they've failed.

    (Original post by Drummerz)
    Point is many of the countries in the "british empire" were independent countries, it was never stolen from you, they were just never yours to have in the first place
    Ignoring the fact that most where primitive it was a very different time. If you back to 1500 (when we rose from being a nobody to moving towards the top of the table) then you have to consider that for centuries we were at war with Spain and then France. Indeed, the Spanish Armada and the French destruction of our trade in 1696 almost crippled us to the point of defeat, it was very much a case for all three of us that we each had to develop empires for labour and land to duel war or there was a very real threat of invasion. It was only in the 1700's with the invention of the BOE, industrial revolution and the development of a significant military advantage that we were finally able to crush our enemies and dominate the 1800's.

    It's incredibly sad that the US and USSR essentially won WW2 to the point that a new world order was established that did not include us retaining an empire.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    No, it was able to conquer an empire because it was rich.


    You have missed the point. You have said that the British government is benevolent toward Kenyan individuals which is why it is beneficial for Kenyans to move to Britain to live under white British rule. If the British government were to rule Kenya benevolently, why wouldn't it be in the interest of Kenyans to live under white British rule in Kenya?

    The logic behind mass immigration as charitable measure and empire as civilising crusade are the same: we govern the natives better than they govern themselves. I'm not commenting on whether that logic is correct, just that it underlies both ideas.
    I get what you're saying but my point was and still is about the people of Britain who voted in this poll. It is not about government strategy on Kenyans in Kenya or in Britain
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    (Original post by the bear)
    yes, and your point is ?
    That it did not belong to the British in the first place
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    (Original post by RegencyTwink)
    That's right. The money from empire accrued to individuals and wealthy families, it's not like the money from empire was used to build roads and hospitals in England that endure to this day.

    If anything, the average British person subsidised through their taxes the Royal Navy and imperial bureaucracy that allowed the British Empire to exist as a trading empire, which benefited the few.

    The idea that the only reason the UK is well-off today is because of stolen wealth is, unfortunately, part of an embittered tendency to make excuses in the third world for their own failures. They like to think the only reason they are poor in India, for example, is because of all this "stolen" money.

    In fact, Britain is a first world country today because like other developed countries it has an excellent education system, low levels of corruption, good infrastructure etc. And former colonies of the empire like Singapore have a GDP per capita that exceeds the UK because they learned the lessons of development.

    India, Kenya, Nigeria etc have to stop blaming their problems on the past and come to grips with the issues that exist in their own countries and particularly amongst their leaders
    I didn't say it was the ONLY reason!! I know there are a myriad of reasons that contribute to countries moving through the stages of development. It's just one of the many reasons.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)


    Nothing racist about it. Give your country a massive military advantage and see how long your own country remains peaceful for. It's human nature to dominate everything we can from the planet and it's fauna to fellow humans with which we have no emotional attachment to.
    No it's not?
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    (Original post by the bear)
    :nopity:

    since we were forced out most of these countries have ended up as corrupt basket cases.
    Yes...and? that means nothing, it was never yours to take in the first place.
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    (Original post by Chateaudee)
    That it did not belong to the British in the first place
    We provided benighted peoples with the benefits of our great culture and Christian values. they should be grateful.
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    (Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes)
    Yes...and? that means nothing, it was never yours to take in the first place.
    Ma'am i beg to disagree. We did not take anything. We entered into a mutually beneficial relationship with unfortunate people.
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    Joe Public is pretty ****ing dim. What did you expect? It's funny because these are probably the same group of people who ***** and moan about immigration all the time.
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    (Original post by MountKimbie)
    No it's not?
    It takes the threat of prison from the state to stop you being murdered and raped. We may be a brilliantly creative and imaginative species but i have no doubt that we are also violent and predatory.
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    (Original post by EtherealNymph22)
    I get what you're saying but my point was and still is about the people of Britain who voted in this poll. It is not about government strategy on Kenyans in Kenya or in Britain
    Right and I am saying that pro-immigration actually has lineal descent from the imperialists.

    At one time, primarily the 18th century, the imperialists were mostly pirates who wanted to enrich themselves, e.g. the Nabobs of India, who were tax farmers mostly. This has become the popular image of all imperialism but in the British Empire at least it was already an anachronism by 1830 or so.

    In the mid-19th century, with the seizure of the India Company by the crown, tax farming was abolished, and the empire became a civilising project, at that time based on aristocratic noblesse oblige.

    Later reformers at the turn of the century adopted a more socialist attitude to their civilising project, focusing on central infrastructure projects.

    Then reform became decolonisation, which created the independent third world, the intent (and expectation) of which was that independent third world countries would rapidly develop under the tutelage of Western academics, NGOs, and aid organisations.

    Although this happened in some places, in most it did not. So the new mass immigration movement is about moving the populations of unsuccessful third world countries into the developed world - reverse colonisation or in-sourcing empire - so that they can live under developed world governments.

    We even seen this link in some terminology - "Little Englander", for instance, originally referred to opponents of the Boer War.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    "Stole it from us"? Who stole it? We handed most of it over voluntarily.
    It was "handed" over because the lands had become empty due to the constant "raping" and then it was becoming increasing expensive to maintain these colonies.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    It takes the threat of prison from the state to stop you being murdered and raped. We may be a brilliantly creative and imaginative species but i have no doubt that we are also violent and predatory.
    You are scary..
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    "Stole it from us"? Who stole it? We handed most of it over voluntarily.
    That makes it worse (although some would suspect that we were politely told to by the US). To willingly reduce your power and influence in the world, to choose to be ruled rather than rule is horrid.

    It's times like this i wonder if we should have accepted the French offer of union at Suez.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    the ingrates bit the hand that fed them :yep:
    The people were feeding themselves quite fine before.The British, like all the other colonial masters, just felt that it was there right to impose their ideologies on others.
 
 
 
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