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TSR MHoC Budget Report 2016 Watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Vs the 2015-16 figures then we have a 210 nominal cut, of course did you actually expect this government to look at the 2016-17 forecasts for their basis?

    As added to my previous post which you missed due to replying before the edit:

    I'd also like to add that unless I missed something whilst there are 500,000 council houses being built, this is being done as an average of 10,000 per year for half a century, so really there isn't much being done there at all.
    I am trying to find where their figure was taken from as it does not match any figures when using total DEL, nor budget minus depreciation, but you are correct, the real terms cut is smaller than £1bn, however, it is not made clear as Table 1 in the spreadsheets does not match the .pdf report.

    The council house building is terrible; it does not cost £200000 to build a small council house with infrastructure to support it. The figures have been made up to make a budget, the explanation of borrowing over years is unclear because I interpret it as an aim to build the council houses quickly but finance them by a long-term borrowing arrangement which always costs more than short-term finance. I think the decision to base a budget on a net £60bn gain from a tax which has not passed yet is a big oversight by the Chancellor; the amendment needs defeating.

    LovepreetDhillon I do not understand how you can support giving a real terms cut to defence but do not support scrapping Trident.

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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I hope you won't mind if I answer these, seeing as this is my project
    1. Firstly, teachers will be being paid slightly more than is average for a secondary school teacher, so there's that. Secondly, it'll simply be a less stressful job. In the NES that I'm envisaging at the moment, courses will be shorter and much more specific than in secondary schools for example - and more importantly, the students will be mature adults genuinely interested in the course content.
    2. It will mean in practice that it is much, much easier for an adult to gain a qualification in a field that they want to transfer their career to, and therefore personal freedom will be increased and productivity will go up as workers will be more likely to be in a job where they're happy. In response to the second and third questions, I can only say for now that I don't know yet - while both are a possibility, this is only a very basic blueprint for the NES - I just wanted to get it in the budget so that the funding for it was set in stone, so to speak. I need to consult a lot more with the Ed Sec, and a much more detailed bill will be brought forward at some point later in the term which could well include both of those proposals.


    I'm not the Chancellor, but I am the Secretary of State for Business, Skills and Lifelong Learning and this is my idea. To give you a very brief overview, legislation is going to be brought forward later in the term to establish a National Education Service which will consist of 153 adult learning colleges geared towards teaching courses in a wide variety of fields to people 25+ with the aim of helping them broaden their skillset to make them more valuable members of society. The legislation will be much, much more detailed than this and I need to do some more consulting with the Ed Sec to refine it before the final product - the only reason this has been explicitly mentioned in the budget was so that the funding could be set in stone. As regards the IT budget, it was supposed to be £0.5 million per college - I must apologise to the House for that because it's a simple error on my part caused by the fact that I did the figures for this after writing 3 essays one after the other.
    Hi, I don't mind you replying at all.

    My comments about teachers, while also applying to those needed for the NES, was a general point about education policy that you cannot afford to omit. I work(ed) as an education specialist recruitment consultant so have talked to thousands of teachers, members or the senior leadership teams and ancillary staff. Teachers are leaving the profession constantly due to the hours and the lack of trust inherent to the position. Teachers are overworked and, as a result, those who are able to find more lucrative careers do and the hole is filled either by agency staff - who cost a great deal more than full-time staff - or foreign teachers who are of incredibly variable quality. I'm asking what your government plans to do to address this as the current situation is negative for teachers, for school and most importantly for pupils and I refuse to believe that a Labour-led government considers this an acceptable situation.

    As for thge second point, that sounds like you have very positive intentions which I commend you for. I look forward to reading that bill when it has been written. As much as it hurts my soul to say it, the RL Tories have made some moves in the right direction with their postgraduate funding and relaxing of funding restrictions for people doing a second degree in a STEM subject for example.

    Thanks for replying
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    After reading behind the empty promises with no detail the budget is worse than I thought: I will vote against it. I am surprised at the lack of creative solutions like ending the tax rebates for landlords which cost £14bn: I am more surprised to see the Secretary of State for Defence supporting a budget giving a real terms cut to his department. I congratulate James Milibanter for making an effort in writing this Labour budget, it has convinced me more that PetrosAC is a weak leader whose desperation to have a title in a government has led to his party being a cannon fodder in a Labour coalition where Liberal ideas are ignored; Liberal MPs voting against the bill prove the coalition is one-sided.

    I do not support; a 50% tax on inheritance, income, nor fuel; the reform bill for LVT is full of errors, is badly written, and does not have clear definitions; a sugar tax will not work as had been demonstrated in other countries to introduce a sugar tax, but a sugar tax will make sugary products which our diet requires more expensive for the poor; giving incentives to students to study abroad will contribute to the lack of talent Britain has; maintenance grants should be replaced by loans; cancelling PFI will likely cost more money than it saves; 500000 council houses are not needed; increasing job seeker's allowance is a deterrent of work; cutting Trident will make Britain vulnerable but not save money; real terms cuts in the defence budget are disastrous for under-equipped forces; and spending nominal amounts of money on small projects around the country is a needless expense.
    You flatter me so much. I'm sure you would have loved the budget even more without Liberal Presence. Some of the MPs on the right of my party aren't happy with certain parts, but in a coalition we cannot completely control economic policy. I am glad Corporation Tax did not rise, The Welfare Cap rise was only limited to London (even though some wanted it completely scrapped) and Income Tax was only raised to 50%. You can call me a Weak Leader all you like, but overall I am happy with my party's influence over this budget, even if we couldn't get everything we wanted in.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I hope you won't mind if I answer these, seeing as this is my project
    1. Firstly, teachers will be being paid slightly more than is average for a secondary school teacher, so there's that. Secondly, it'll simply be a less stressful job. In the NES that I'm envisaging at the moment, courses will be shorter and much more specific than in secondary schools for example - and more importantly, the students will be mature adults genuinely interested in the course content.
    2. It will mean in practice that it is much, much easier for an adult to gain a qualification in a field that they want to transfer their career to, and therefore personal freedom will be increased and productivity will go up as workers will be more likely to be in a job where they're happy. In response to the second and third questions, Lifelong Learning and this is my idea. To give you a very brief overview, legislation is going to be brought forward later in the term to establish a National Education Service which will consist of 153 adult learning colleges geared towards teaching courses in a wide variety of fields to people 25+ with the aim of helping them broaden their skillset to make them more valuable members of society. The legislation will be much, much more detailed than this and I need to do some more consulting with the Ed Sec to refine it before the final product per college - I must apologise to the House for that because it's a simple error on my part caused by the fact that I did the figures for this after writing 3 essays one after the other.
    I completely agree with this and if I were allowed, would vlte 'aye'. Apologies for messing up your original quote - my tablet just went strange.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I am trying to find where their figure was taken from as it does not match any figures when using total DEL, nor budget minus depreciation, but you are correct, the real terms cut is smaller than £1bn, however, it is not made clear as Table 1 in the spreadsheets does not match the .pdf report.

    The council house building is terrible; it does not cost £200000 to build a small council house with infrastructure to support it. The figures have been made up to make a budget, the explanation of borrowing over years is unclear because I interpret it as an aim to build the council houses quickly but finance them by a long-term borrowing arrangement which always costs more than short-term finance. I think the decision to base a budget on a net £60bn gain from a tax which has not passed yet is a big oversight by the Chancellor; the amendment needs defeating.
    The thing is though that I'm fairly sure that even if that amendment is defeated, if the budget passes it is enacted anyway. But it naturally comes as not surprise that the figures were pulled out of a hat given that average house prices in much of the country aren't even £200,000, let alone council houses.

    Your interpretation is an interesting one in that in the early years they either need to find a VERY good lender or they will actually be increasing the deficit year on year, and doing it your way the deficit does not sit at ~40bn as they say, but more like £140bn. Suppose the loan is merely 2% interest and that is applied after repayments rather than it being a continuous system, of course, during the first year £2bn would be paid but the detbs would only decrease my a measly £40m. Give me a few minutes and I'll brush off my Java skills and write a program to work out how long things take to pay off and how much is paid with inputs of initial loan, interest rates and nominal payoff, assuming a flat payback rate, with modifications being easy enough to allow variable changes in payback, supposing the change is consistent.
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Hi, I don't mind you replying at all.

    My comments about teachers, while also applying to those needed for the NES, was a general point about education policy that you cannot afford to omit. I work(ed) as an education specialist recruitment consultant so have talked to thousands of teachers, members or the senior leadership teams and ancillary staff. Teachers are leaving the profession constantly due to the hours and the lack of trust inherent to the position. Teachers are overworked and, as a result, those who are able to find more lucrative careers do and the hole is filled either by agency staff - who cost a great deal more than full-time staff - or foreign teachers who are of incredibly variable quality. I'm asking what your government plans to do to address this as the current situation is negative for teachers, for school and most importantly for pupils and I refuse to believe that a Labour-led government considers this an acceptable situation.

    As for thge second point, that sounds like you have very positive intentions which I commend you for. I look forward to reading that bill when it has been written. As much as it hurts my soul to say it, the RL Tories have made some moves in the right direction with their postgraduate funding and relaxing of funding restrictions for people doing a second degree in a STEM subject for example.

    Thanks for replying
    I'm not the Ed Sec - that's junaidk7 - and as such I can't give you policy plans on children's/secondary education in general, but my personal view is largely in line with yours. Too much is definitely demanded of teachers, and I will be pushing both for teachers to be paid more and for steps to be taken to reform the curriculum - perhaps drop some topics, or add a year to education - so that teachers don't have to cram as much in in so short a time (this was a major problem for me at GCSE - the teachers had so little time to spend on each topic that I barely knew whole major areas of some subjects). I think teachers also need to be given a bit more freedom - less paperwork and fewer boxes to tick can't be a bad thing.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I'm not the Ed Sec - that's junaidk7 - and as such I can't give you policy plans on children's/secondary education in general, but my personal view is largely in line with yours. Too much is definitely demanded of teachers, and I will be pushing both for teachers to be paid more and for steps to be taken to reform the curriculum - perhaps drop some topics, or add a year to education - so that teachers don't have to cram as much in in so short a time (this was a major problem for me at GCSE - the teachers had so little time to spend on each topic that I barely knew whole major areas of some subjects). I think teachers also need to be given a bit more freedom - less paperwork and fewer boxes to tick can't be a bad thing.
    We also need to be much better at teaching students life skills. How do you get a job? How do you open a bank account? Improve your credit score? Get a mortgage? Pay bills? Use an ISA? etcetc ad infinitum
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    Some of these values, just come across to me as arbitrary values, plucked out of thin air- with no reference or reason to back them up!
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    You flatter me so much. I'm sure you would have loved the budget even more without Liberal Presence. Some of the MPs on the right of my party aren't happy with certain parts, but in a coalition we cannot completely control economic policy. I am glad Corporation Tax did not rise, The Welfare Cap rise was only limited to London (even though some wanted it completely scrapped) and Income Tax was only raised to 50%. You can call me a Weak Leader all you like, but overall I am happy with my party's influence over this budget, even if we couldn't get everything we wanted in.
    For a party in government the Liberals have a terrible record, it is time the Liberals stood up to Labour to demand more; being lapdogs to a bigger party, using the excuse of needing to compromise on everything is being weak.

    Raising the national tax threshold to £15000 - failed
    £2.5bn for mental health - failed
    More teachers, smaller classes - failed
    Legalise prostitution - failed
    A modern bill of rights - failed
    Wages cap in state organisations - failed
    Taxes on pollution, one-off loans, and pay day lenders - failed
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    For a party in government the Liberals have a terrible record, it is time the Liberals stood up to Labour to demand more; being lapdogs to a bigger party, using the excuse of needing to compromise on everything is being weak.

    Raising the national tax threshold to £15000 - failed
    £2.5bn for mental health - failed
    More teachers, smaller classes - failed
    Legalise prostitution - failed
    A modern bill of rights - failed
    Wages cap in state organisations - failed
    Taxes on pollution, one-off loans, and pay day lenders - failed
    here here
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    For a party in government the Liberals have a terrible record, it is time the Liberals stood up to Labour to demand more; being lapdogs to a bigger party, using the excuse of needing to compromise on everything is being weak.

    Raising the national tax threshold to £15000 - failed
    £2.5bn for mental health - failed
    More teachers, smaller classes - failed
    Legalise prostitution - failed
    A modern bill of rights - failed
    Wages cap in state organisations - failed
    Taxes on pollution, one-off loans, and pay day lenders - failed
    The only two we've failed on are Personal Allowance which we still increased and Further taxes.

    A Digital Bill of Rights bill is written and currently under discussion in the Government sub forum.

    The Health Secretary will be adding at least £2.5bn to Mental Health services in their SOI when it is finalised and released.

    The Brothel bill is written and myself and Joe just need to make some adjustments to it.

    We're pushing for education reform in Government and I hope we can push for smaller classes and more teachers this term, though it may be something to push forward to next term.

    Admittedly Wage Caps in State Organisations isn't something we've been overly focused on as it was mainly Jarred's idea and there have been more important things to focus on.

    However, we've managed to secure further funding for the NHS, reverse the Inheritance Tax cut, introduced gradual nationalisation of the railways (though we would have preferred a State Competitor), Increased Education funding and there is still half of the term left. During all this, we have changed Leader and done things we didn't initially pledge either, as well as stopping Labour raising Corporation Tax, raising Income Tax further and scrapping or significantly raising the Welfare Cap further.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    The Health Secretary will be adding at least £2.5bn to Mental Health services in their SOI when it is finalised and released.
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    As this has been mentioned I will confirm, as SoS for Health, that mental health services will be receiving at least £2.5bn more.

    I would also point out that Labour has had to compromise on far more than UKIP and others seem to give the Liberals credit for.
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    Nigel Farage MEP got the program written and supposing just a 2% interest rate on the £100bn loan with interest only applied after payment, with only £2bn paid each year it would take 199 years to pay off the debt. Just 1% would take 69 years, and interest of 2.041% or higher would have it never being paid off.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    However, we've managed to secure further funding for the NHS, reverse the Inheritance Tax cut, introduced gradual nationalisation of the railways (though we would have preferred a State Competitor), Increased Education funding and there is still half of the term left. During all this, we have changed Leader and done things we didn't initially pledge either, as well as stopping Labour raising Corporation Tax, raising Income Tax further and scrapping or significantly raising the Welfare Cap further.
    The fire part of your response was all promises about what is to come but there is little sign of it coming, there have been no reports detailing policy that is about to come; things should not take this long.

    Blocking Labour ideas is a start, but when Labour have an idea there should be a Liberal idea; that could be in the same ratio as the number of MPs each party brings to the coalition. There have been no Liberal policies included in the budget that Labour would not have done, nor have there been Liberal policies in the past supported by the government as a whole.

    Jammy Duel That is terrible but if the policy was interpreted in the way you did, the 500000th council house to be built in 50 years time will be over-budget as inflation has not been calculated.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The fire part of your response was all promises about what is to come but there is little sign of it coming, there have been no reports detailing policy that is about to come; things should not take this long.

    Blocking Labour ideas is a start, but when Labour have an idea there should be a Liberal idea; that could be in the same ratio as the number of MPs each party brings to the coalition. There have been no Liberal policies included in the budget that Labour would not have done, nor have there been Liberal policies in the past supported by the government as a whole.
    What has UKIP passed this parliament (not an attack, I'm genuinely asking as I've not been around)?
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    I welcome the Government not reducing fuel duty. I would have liked to have seen greater investment in the railways than is proposed.

    How is the cancelling of PFI contracts in hospitals to be carried out? Will there need to be short-term funding to buy them out? Should the same not apply to school buildings and any other PFI contracts?
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    What has UKIP passed this parliament (not an attack, I'm genuinely asking as I've not been around)?
    For a party not in government UKIP has passed a bill to ban circumcision, the bills written to do other things in our manifesto have been rejected.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    For a party not in government UKIP has passed a bill to ban circumcision, the bills written to do other things in our manifesto have been rejected.
    Okay, thanks.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The fire part of your response was all promises about what is to come but there is little sign of it coming, there have been no reports detailing policy that is about to come; things should not take this long.

    Blocking Labour ideas is a start, but when Labour have an idea there should be a Liberal idea; that could be in the same ratio as the number of MPs each party brings to the coalition. There have been no Liberal policies included in the budget that Labour would not have done, nor have there been Liberal policies in the past supported by the government as a whole.
    I'll admit it's been a slow first half of the term in terms of mainly Liberal Policies. As a Government, we've focussed on Policies we both support, so Labour shouldn't solely get the credit for Policies that we worked on and developed together in Government. I've been Leader for a month now. The Party isn't going to be exactly the same as it was under Jarred or Airmed, and I refuse to be solely judged on the manifesto commitments of my predecessor though I obviously support the majority of them.

    The thing is, in the Government there are Socialists, Social Democrats and Centrists/Orange Bookers. The crossover is obviously in the Social Democrats, and there isn't much I can do when most of the Labour Party and half of my party agree on things. This means that when we have a Social Democratic idea vs a Centrist-Centre-Right idea, the Social Democratic idea wins 9/10 times.

    The Liberals will however continue to pursue our own ideas and policies, regardless of whether they have Labour's support, though it's of course preferable. I'm hoping to get the Digital Bill of Rights out after everything with the budget has died down, as well as the Brothel Regulation Bill.

    I'll make this clear though, there are no policies in this entire budget that the majority of my members do not support.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I'll make this clear though, there are no policies in this entire budget that the majority of my members do not support.
    You mean every single last policy in this was voted on?
 
 
 
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