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    (Original post by mas_)
    Christianity.. a true religion? I can't even start on how many contradictions there are in the Bible and how the Bible has lost its meaning through all the translations. You can't say Islam is not true just because of that - that's ridiculous
    Again, can we have stats on these conversions?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    It's not an insult. Can you please stop playing the victim card, it's sort of sad.

    You can google things, and find answering-Islam or some far fetched quranist cesspit. But you quite conveniently choose not to read Muslim websites. Google is your oyster but you don't use it to do any holistic reading. Do not expect a well written 5-star refutation from one of us.

    Surely you could google and find it yourself but I guess it doesn't suit well when your conformation bias levels are astoundingly high.
    And yet again more insults showing you have nothing to add. I and others here have already provided links showing textual variations.
    • #9
    #9

    (Original post by mariachi)
    you can find lists of the differences in Quranic texts also here http://www.kalamullah.com/history-of...anic-text.html

    just download Azami's book : it is in fact very detailed
    I've already read parts of it before.

    I guess the detail must've been too much for you to understand.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Stop playing the victim card. It's sad.

    You have no clue what any of this means. At the very most. you have average google skills. Nothing more, maybe something less. This is just a copy-paste game with heavy dose of conformation bias from your end.
    More insults yet again. And lol at you calling me sad when you're the one hiding behind anonymous to insult people :rofl:
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    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17. So I know a lot about Islam, probably more than the average Muslim, as I've studied many many Hadith and the translation of the Quran and Fiqh and all that. I can also read Arabic and speak a bit. It's also worth mentioning that I deeply believed everything Islam stood for and thought that the Islamic way was the only way of life. I felt like this life had no meaning and all that mattered was the Hereafter and we had to work towards that - all material things and interpersonal relationships were worthless and any action you do, you only do it for Allah.

    Regardless to say, at 17, I discovered TSR as I was searching for some UCAS advice and I was inevitably drawn to the many Islam threads that were trending at the time, LoL. At first I couldn't understand why so many people criticised it and were against it, but after a while, and thanks to the issues raised by the great debaters of TSR and the lack of satisfying responses from Islamists, I started seeing the truth and that Islam is nothing but a cult invented by some Arabs a long time ago to advance their own interests. There is nothing divine about it. Arguably there's still some good advice in it, but the bad definitely outweighs the good.

    But my main issue was that the religion claims that it's perfect, timeless for all places and all situations but that's just not the case. If we lived in the perfect Islamic utopia (take ISIS for example), barbaric punishments would still be allowed, women would have their basic rights denied, people would still have the mentality that this life is temporary so comfort and well-being don't matter and we probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are now... And that doesn't seem like a world I would like to live in, so the only possible logical conclusion was to reject Islam.

    Well, I just wanted to share my story with TSR, since it was mostly thanks to you that I'm free from the shackles of a man-made religion and I'm able to enjoy life as I see fit.
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    (Original post by t.s.r.)
    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17. So I know a lot about Islam, probably more than the average Muslim, as I've studied many many Hadith and the translation of the Quran and Fiqh and all that. I can also read Arabic and speak a bit. It's also worth mentioning that I deeply believed everything Islam stood for and thought that the Islamic way was the only way of life. I felt like this life had no meaning and all that mattered was the Hereafter and we had to work towards that - all material things and interpersonal relationships were worthless and any action you do, you only do it for Allah.

    Regardless to say, at 17, I discovered TSR as I was searching for some UCAS advice and I was inevitably drawn to the many Islam threads that were trending at the time, LoL. At first I couldn't understand why so many people criticised it and were against it, but after a while, and thanks to the issues raised by the great debaters of TSR and the lack of satisfying responses from Islamists, I started seeing the truth and that Islam is nothing but a cult invented by some Arabs a long time ago to advance their own interests. There is nothing divine about it. Arguably there's still some good advice in it, but the bad definitely outweighs the good.

    But my main issue was that the religion claims that it's perfect, timeless for all places and all situations but that's just not the case. If we lived in the perfect Islamic utopia (take ISIS for example), barbaric punishments would still be allowed, women would have their basic rights denied, people would still have the mentality that this life is temporary so comfort and well-being don't matter and we probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are now... And that doesn't seem like a world I would like to live in, so the only possible logical conclusion was to reject Islam.

    Well, I just wanted to share my story with TSR, since it was mostly thanks to you that I'm free from the shackles of a man-made religion and I'm able to enjoy life as I see fit.
    Good for you! Was a very interesting read too and should put to rest the view by many religionists that the Internet can never change someone's beliefs and opinions
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    Other than this being a very one sided debate, why are so many Muslims hiding behind the anonymous function? Stand up for your beliefs.
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    (Original post by t.s.r.)
    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17. So I know a lot about Islam, probably more than the average Muslim, as I've studied many many Hadith and the translation of the Quran and Fiqh and all that. I can also read Arabic and speak a bit. It's also worth mentioning that I deeply believed everything Islam stood for and thought that the Islamic way was the only way of life. I felt like this life had no meaning and all that mattered was the Hereafter and we had to work towards that - all material things and interpersonal relationships were worthless and any action you do, you only do it for Allah.

    Regardless to say, at 17, I discovered TSR as I was searching for some UCAS advice and I was inevitably drawn to the many Islam threads that were trending at the time, LoL. At first I couldn't understand why so many people criticised it and were against it, but after a while, and thanks to the issues raised by the great debaters of TSR and the lack of satisfying responses from Islamists, I started seeing the truth and that Islam is nothing but a cult invented by some Arabs a long time ago to advance their own interests. There is nothing divine about it. Arguably there's still some good advice in it, but the bad definitely outweighs the good.

    But my main issue was that the religion claims that it's perfect, timeless for all places and all situations but that's just not the case. If we lived in the perfect Islamic utopia (take ISIS for example), barbaric punishments would still be allowed, women would have their basic rights denied, people would still have the mentality that this life is temporary so comfort and well-being don't matter and we probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are now... And that doesn't seem like a world I would like to live in, so the only possible logical conclusion was to reject Islam.

    Well, I just wanted to share my story with TSR, since it was mostly thanks to you that I'm free from the shackles of a man-made religion and I'm able to enjoy life as I see fit.
    Congratulations on emancipating yourself from religion. I'll think of this the next time I get involved in an argument with a creationist. Enjoy your life.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I've already read parts of it before.

    I guess the detail must've been too much for you to understand.
    then, you will know that Azami himself acknowledges the existence of Quranic variants (even if he prefers to call them "multiple readings")

    even if we limit ourselves to the undotted consonant "skeleton" of the Quran (the "rasm") Azami acknowledges the existence of these variants, which of course he considers can be traced back to Muhammad (who, allegedly, recited the Quran in seven different variant recitations, all of them "authentic")

    Interesting that Muhammad chose to recite in 7 different Arabic dialects : my advice would have been to add at least e.g. a Greek, a Latin, a Chinese recitation ...

    by the way, lots of people have memorised the Quran in a language (Arabic) they don't understand

    why "Allah" chose to cater for Arabs to the extent of revealing seven Arabic dialectal varieties of his final revelation (instead of somehow benefiting also the rest of humanity) remains in any case a mystery ...
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    (Original post by Quantex)
    Other than this being a very one sided debate, why are so many Muslims hiding behind the anonymous function? Stand up for your beliefs.
    I quite resent the fact that the mods have stopped de-anonymising posts that misuse the anonymous function. It allows people to hurl insults and abuse and get nothing more than a blue card for it, if that.
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    (Original post by t.s.r.)
    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17t
    thanks for your story

    when people step out of their cocoon (I call it the "Islamic bubble"), their beliefs will be challenged, and they will actually be stimulated to learn more and to examine critically their beliefs

    some may then leave Islam, some will stay : this is in any case a healthy exercise, and in this TSR is hugely useful

    yes, sometimes I am irritated by Islamic apologists and their apparent dogmatic indifference to logical argument, just like I am sure that I irritate Muslims since I don't accept "proof" that they consider as being 100% persuasive

    however, the extraordinary experience of TSR is the lively debate, where each participant can express himself freely (within the limits of the law)

    for this reason, we should be wary of attempts to hamper the freedom of debate and discussion on TSR : political correctness, no thanks
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    (Original post by t.s.r.)
    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17. So I know a lot about Islam, probably more than the average Muslim, as I've studied many many Hadith and the translation of the Quran and Fiqh and all that. I can also read Arabic and speak a bit. It's also worth mentioning that I deeply believed everything Islam stood for and thought that the Islamic way was the only way of life. I felt like this life had no meaning and all that mattered was the Hereafter and we had to work towards that - all material things and interpersonal relationships were worthless and any action you do, you only do it for Allah.

    Regardless to say, at 17, I discovered TSR as I was searching for some UCAS advice and I was inevitably drawn to the many Islam threads that were trending at the time, LoL. At first I couldn't understand why so many people criticised it and were against it, but after a while, and thanks to the issues raised by the great debaters of TSR and the lack of satisfying responses from Islamists, I started seeing the truth and that Islam is nothing but a cult invented by some Arabs a long time ago to advance their own interests. There is nothing divine about it. Arguably there's still some good advice in it, but the bad definitely outweighs the good.

    But my main issue was that the religion claims that it's perfect, timeless for all places and all situations but that's just not the case. If we lived in the perfect Islamic utopia (take ISIS for example), barbaric punishments would still be allowed, women would have their basic rights denied, people would still have the mentality that this life is temporary so comfort and well-being don't matter and we probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are now... And that doesn't seem like a world I would like to live in, so the only possible logical conclusion was to reject Islam.

    Well, I just wanted to share my story with TSR, since it was mostly thanks to you that I'm free from the shackles of a man-made religion and I'm able to enjoy life as I see fit.
    Congratulations friend . An interesting story, to which I (a fellow Ex-Muslim) can relate too.
    • #10
    #10

    (Original post by Quantex)
    Other than this being a very one sided debate, why are so many Muslims hiding behind the anonymous function? Stand up for your beliefs.
    cos if we did everyone just criticise us, why bother meh
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Good for you! Was a very interesting read too and should put to rest the view by many religionists that the Internet can never change someone's beliefs and opinions
    Thanks! Yes, it's amazing how much my views have changed, honestly, considering I was indoctrinated at a very young age and with the 'full-on' treatment.

    I guess it was how the non-Muslims kept on always asking the same right questions time and time again, never relenting until they got a good answer, and of course, they never did.

    There's also one other peculiarity, it was actually the non-Muslims' politeness and ability to stay on point without recurring to personal insults and the Muslims in the end going there that I made the difference, as having a good conduct is such a vital part of being a good Muslim. It was like, if these people who have nothing to do with Islam and don't do anything because there's a god but because it's the right thing to do, are so well-mannered and the others behave like that then Islam fails its purpose.

    So, debaters of TSR, keep up the good work! xD

    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Congratulations on emancipating yourself from religion. I'll think of this the next time I get involved in an argument with a creationist. Enjoy your life.
    Thank you! I feel so much better!

    I don't have to feel depressed anymore for 'sinning' (my lowest point was when I felt terrible for taking out a student loan because it had interest in it and thinking that all the money I earned from that degree would be Haram and that there would be no Barakah (blessings) in it for me and my life would be cursed for eating, drinking and wearing clothes from Haram money LOL (real strict Wahabbism, everything you do has consequences in your life and you are judged for every single action). I also don't have to go out and feel like everything is pointless and unnecessary, so that's really good.

    Anyway, thank you

    (Original post by mariachi)
    thanks for your storywhen people step out of their cocoon (I call it the "Islamic bubble", their beliefs will be challenged, and they will actually be stimulated to learn more and to examine critically their beliefssome may then leave Islam, some will stay : this is in any case a healthy exercise, and in this TSR is hugely usefulyes, sometimes I am irritated by Islamic apologists and their apparent dogmatic indifference to logical argument, just like I am sure that I irritate Muslims since I don't accept "proof" that they consider as being 100% persuasivehowever, the extraordinary experience of TSR is the lively debate, where each participant can express himself freely (within the limits of the law)for this reason, we should be wary of attempts to hamper the freedom of debate and discussion on TSR : political correctness, no thanks
    Yes, definitely! I totally agree with you. I feel like TSR is a platform that changes lives and helps so many people ranging from study help, to emotional support, to showing the two sides of the coin on this endless debate on religion. This website has a lot of impact on people but only because anyone can express themselves freely no matter how controversial their views are, so it should continue being this way. xD


    (Original post by string56)
    Congratulations friend . An interesting story, to which I (a fellow Ex-Muslim) can relate too.
    Oh, thank you it really is a case for congratulations, it's as if you gained a new life!

    It was hard to adjust in the beginning - you've been thinking your whole life that some being was in control of everything and every time something good happened you would thank him, and when something bad happened you would reexamine your life and check on your sins and think it's your fault and beg him for forgiveness, and then suddenly you realise that there probably wasn't anyone there to begin with or at least not an Islamic god... That is a big shock - you have to change your whole way of viewing the Universe.

    You have to adapt and sort of create your own life 'philosophy', but after a while it does pay off and your outlook on life improves.


    What about you? What was the tipping point for you and what did you struggle most with after you left?
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    (Original post by t.s.r.)
    To tell you the truth, I've also become an ex-Muslim. It's really funny because I went to a full on Wahabbist Islamic school from when I was 6 all the way to 17. So I know a lot about Islam, probably more than the average Muslim, as I've studied many many Hadith and the translation of the Quran and Fiqh and all that. I can also read Arabic and speak a bit. It's also worth mentioning that I deeply believed everything Islam stood for and thought that the Islamic way was the only way of life. I felt like this life had no meaning and all that mattered was the Hereafter and we had to work towards that - all material things and interpersonal relationships were worthless and any action you do, you only do it for Allah.

    Regardless to say, at 17, I discovered TSR as I was searching for some UCAS advice and I was inevitably drawn to the many Islam threads that were trending at the time, LoL. At first I couldn't understand why so many people criticised it and were against it, but after a while, and thanks to the issues raised by the great debaters of TSR and the lack of satisfying responses from Islamists, I started seeing the truth and that Islam is nothing but a cult invented by some Arabs a long time ago to advance their own interests. There is nothing divine about it. Arguably there's still some good advice in it, but the bad definitely outweighs the good.

    But my main issue was that the religion claims that it's perfect, timeless for all places and all situations but that's just not the case. If we lived in the perfect Islamic utopia (take ISIS for example), barbaric punishments would still be allowed, women would have their basic rights denied, people would still have the mentality that this life is temporary so comfort and well-being don't matter and we probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced as we are now... And that doesn't seem like a world I would like to live in, so the only possible logical conclusion was to reject Islam.

    Well, I just wanted to share my story with TSR, since it was mostly thanks to you that I'm free from the shackles of a man-made religion and I'm able to enjoy life as I see fit.
    "Women would still have their basic rights denied", for someone with apparently so much Islamic knowledge you haven't researched this at all. Islam gave women rights 1,400 years ago so you're in no position to claim that women have their rights denied in Islam.
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    (Original post by mas_)
    "Women would still have their basic rights denied", for someone with apparently so much Islamic knowledge you haven't researched this at all. Islam gave women rights 1,400 years ago so you're in no position to claim that women have their rights denied in Islam.
    If by this you're implying that before Islam women didn't have rights, then you're deeply mistaken.
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    (Original post by mas_)
    "Women would still have their basic rights denied", for someone with apparently so much Islamic knowledge you haven't researched this at all. Islam gave women rights 1,400 years ago so you're in no position to claim that women have their rights denied in Islam.
    while Islam of course gives women some rights (no religion or State can deny women all rights), it severely discriminates against women

    within the family, wives are subordinated to their husbands ("obedient") who can discipline them physically, and are disadvantaged in matters of marriage, divorce, custody and patrimonial rights, inheritance

    in wider society, women are excluded from political power, limited in their movements (traveling without mahram), discriminated in legal proceedings (in financial matters), subject also to a stricter dress code

    Islam reflects the state of a patriarchal, tribal society, the society of 7thcentury Arabia. It is clearly outdated, as far as the position of women is concerned
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    At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.
    The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.
    The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.
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    (Original post by mas_)
    "Women would still have their basic rights denied", for someone with apparently so much Islamic knowledge you haven't researched this at all. Islam gave women rights 1,400 years ago so you're in no position to claim that women have their rights denied in Islam.
    It might have given them a few more rights a long time ago but those rights are nowhere near as equal as men's and women are still considered inferior beings both physically and mentally, so that way of thinking and the few rights they have within Islam most certainly can't be applied to today's era.
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    (Original post by youngthug97)
    [size=2][font=Arial Black][b]At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical]
    and so said Greek scientists (e.g. Eratosthenes) about 1000 years before the Quran. Clearly Eratosthenes was a messenger from God.

    More seriously, you post here (without acknowledging your source) a copy-paste from a desperate manual called "The Comprehensive Guide For Da'wah In Mosques (Masjids)" https://books.google.be/books?id=3Ab...own%22&f=false

    and you expect to be taken seriously ?
 
 
 
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