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    Frequently, the Israely occupation in the palestinian areas draw much criticism. The most frequent relates to the settlements, demolishion of houses and civilian causulties. In light of the atrocities in Iraq, how justified is this criticism? Ok, Sharon is agressive, civilians get killed, people lose their homes, but compare this to any other war situation in the world. How many peopel here can point to a military operation during the last two decades where the soldiers were more diciplinised than the IDF? Can anyone point to such a military operation without atrocities? I see that this is not a reason for Israel not to be critisised, but given the large number of UN resolutions passed condemming Israeli operations, given that Amnesty are allowed to inspect Israely Jails, given that terrorist groups are blowing Israeli citizens to pieces, why has there not been more reactions towards the atrocities carried out in Iraq by coalition soldiers? Where is the Israeli Guantanamo base where prisioners are denied human rights for two year periods? Where are the pictures of Israeli soldiers harrasing inmates and forcingthem to participate in obscene sexual acts?

    If the UN and Europe is to keep its crediability, then they will have to recognise that the Israely army has , given the circumstances, behaved in a more diciplinised manner than most armies in the world. Instead, the IDF is compared to the Gestapo, the separation fence is condemned harder than the massive atrocities carried out in every dictatorship on the Arab peninsula.

    Given this form of bias, I do not find it strange that Israel has no respect whatsoever for the UN, nor its resolutions.
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    Israel should never have happened. Attempts to redress a crap situation are just making the whole thing worse. I think it stems from no one important representing Palestinian interests. It looks a bit lop-sided to me.
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    (Original post by ZJuwelH)
    Israel should never have happened. Attempts to redress a crap situation are just making the whole thing worse. I think it stems from no one important representing Palestinian interests. It looks a bit lop-sided to me.
    Noone important representing palestinian interests? Except 90% of European politicians of course. How can you possibly explain that there is a flood of anti-Israeli resolutions passed in the general assembly but not a single one condemming the failure of the surronding countries to deal with terrorism?

    Israel was created because the Jews residing in the area had quite little choice. Either stay and fight, or get back to a germany which had atempted to slay all Jews only 3 years ago. What would you do in a similar situation?
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    I like Isreal
    I don't like those who are afraid of State Defence
    Viva la Isreal, death to the terrorists
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    UN resolutions are about as useful as an index in a dictionary.
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    (Original post by ZJuwelH)
    UN resolutions are about as useful as an index in a dictionary.
    I note that the Encyclopaedia Britannica has an index....
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    I note that the Encyclopaedia Britannica has an index....
    I note that I say dictionary.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Frequently, the Israely occupation in the palestinian areas draw much criticism. The most frequent relates to the settlements, demolishion of houses and civilian causulties. In light of the atrocities in Iraq, how justified is this criticism? Ok, Sharon is agressive, civilians get killed, people lose their homes, but compare this to any other war situation in the world. How many peopel here can point to a military operation during the last two decades where the soldiers were more diciplinised than the IDF? Can anyone point to such a military operation without atrocities? I see that this is not a reason for Israel not to be critisised, but given the large number of UN resolutions passed condemming Israeli operations, given that Amnesty are allowed to inspect Israely Jails, given that terrorist groups are blowing Israeli citizens to pieces, why has there not been more reactions towards the atrocities carried out in Iraq by coalition soldiers? Where is the Israeli Guantanamo base where prisioners are denied human rights for two year periods? Where are the pictures of Israeli soldiers harrasing inmates and forcingthem to participate in obscene sexual acts?

    If the UN and Europe is to keep its crediability, then they will have to recognise that the Israely army has , given the circumstances, behaved in a more diciplinised manner than most armies in the world. Instead, the IDF is compared to the Gestapo, the separation fence is condemned harder than the massive atrocities carried out in every dictatorship on the Arab peninsula.

    Given this form of bias, I do not find it strange that Israel has no respect whatsoever for the UN, nor its resolutions.
    You cannot justify an injustice by comparing it to a (debatably) greater injustice. Using your logic the range of 'acceptable' activities possible for a state or people to carry out would be very great indeed bearing in mind the acts of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    You cannot justify an injustice by comparing it to a (debatably) greater injustice. Using your logic the range of 'acceptable' activities possible for a state or people to carry out would be very great indeed bearing in mind the acts of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany.
    I am not trying to justify the Israeli operations. I am merely saying that any criticism should be brought forward in a constructive and serious way. As of today the UN and many western countries has a rather schizofrenic attitude towards atrocities biased with regard to political popularity. Israel may have deserved some critics, but if all the fire Israel has received from Europe is justified then western nations has done a remarkably bad job at pointing out similar atrocities elsewere. One thing is to give the Israeli government criticism for their wrongdoings, another is to have a completely exclusive policy for a single nation. As of today Europe seems to operate with a much stricter set of rules when it comes to Israel than it does for virtually all other countries.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Frequently, the Israely occupation in the palestinian areas draw much criticism. The most frequent relates to the settlements, demolishion of houses and civilian causulties. In light of the atrocities in Iraq, how justified is this criticism? Ok, Sharon is agressive, civilians get killed, people lose their homes, but compare this to any other war situation in the world. How many peopel here can point to a military operation during the last two decades where the soldiers were more diciplinised than the IDF? Can anyone point to such a military operation without atrocities? I see that this is not a reason for Israel not to be critisised, but given the large number of UN resolutions passed condemming Israeli operations, given that Amnesty are allowed to inspect Israely Jails, given that terrorist groups are blowing Israeli citizens to pieces, why has there not been more reactions towards the atrocities carried out in Iraq by coalition soldiers? Where is the Israeli Guantanamo base where prisioners are denied human rights for two year periods? Where are the pictures of Israeli soldiers harrasing inmates and forcingthem to participate in obscene sexual acts?

    If the UN and Europe is to keep its crediability, then they will have to recognise that the Israely army has , given the circumstances, behaved in a more diciplinised manner than most armies in the world. Instead, the IDF is compared to the Gestapo, the separation fence is condemned harder than the massive atrocities carried out in every dictatorship on the Arab peninsula.

    Given this form of bias, I do not find it strange that Israel has no respect whatsoever for the UN, nor its resolutions.

    First of all the reason the outrage or the effect of the revelation of the US military atrocities is well that it is the US military. They are also excempted from the War Court in Hagg unlike israel or any other country. This means that should the US military be found guilty in any warcrimes (be that one single soldier or more) than they will stand before this non US and so perhaps more objective court in Hagg. Funny thing is the situation is here but US is excempted.

    As for Israel and Sharon. Seperate the two. The israeli public in general does not condone atrocities made against palestinians or others in jails. Are you aware that the atrocities taking place in Iraq are similar to those which have taken place through out years in israeli prisons? Including rape and other humiliation? So the israeli guatanamo bay does exist. It has for the last many years. Nobody has access to it and its not high in the news poles. But its there alright.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's clear whre the US admin gets there inspiration. And I sincerely doubt the Israeli public are for this.

    Sure wars happen, and casualties take place. But how is rape and degrading people part of military procedures? Since when? Just because you are in prison does not mean you don't have rights.

    And don't compare sharon to anything. He is the closest you find of a modern day hitler. The man savagely butchered Lebanon in 1982. He oozes hate and he defines hate. There were babies beheaded, Jonatan. Babies. Are you telling me babies were threats? Casualties? Women were raped. Men and boys were killed. Ethnic cleansing. One word. Evil.

    My stance on this is simple. Whether your name is Sharon or its Bill or Ali. You do not transgress limits just because you are in a conflict. That is not even remotely going to restore any confidence or peace. Is peace not what is wanted here? Now an entire nation hates the US admin and well who can blame them. Its just wrong. These are humans we are talking about. You don't even treat animals like this. You don't have to like them but tolorate them yes. Abu Ghraib has totally damaged the US image and now no amount of apology or kneeling will reverse that. Evil.

    Abu ghraib shows sick entertainment for these soldiers who participated. We were not trained as prison guards so instead we thought why not rape people and degrade them? WTF?
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    And don't compare sharon to anything. He is the closest you find of a modern day hitler. The man savagely butchered Lebanon in 1982. He oozes hate and he defines hate. There were babies beheaded, Jonatan. Babies. Are you telling me babies were threats? Casualties? Women were raped. Men and boys were killed. Ethnic cleansing. One word. Evil.
    You forget to mention a couple of things. First of all this was not carried out by the Israelis, it was Lebaneese Christian fanatics. Second of all Sharon, and his share of the IDF, were the ones to STOP the slaughter. The reason he was found responsible of the situation was simply that he did not detect the massacre earlier. But of course, since we want to put down criticism here such details as what actually happened are not important are they?

    Rearding your claims of Israeli jails were palestinians are treated in similar ways to what happened in Iraq, and that noone has access, it is pure nonsense. Amnesty International and the Red cross comitee has had full access to Israeli jails for some time. Why havent they reported this if it is the case? In Iraq these organisations did not eaven have access to the prision, yet what happened slipped out. In Israel they can question the inmates whenever they like, and still no such reports. The only claims of these atrocities comes from outside of Israel. Palestinians residing in the west bank claiming that this abuse is frequent in Israeli jails, without any evidence whatsoever.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    You forget to mention a couple of things. First of all this was not carried out by the Israelis, it was Lebaneese Christian fanatics. Second of all Sharon, and his share of the IDF, were the ones to STOP the slaughter. The reason he was found responsible of the situation was simply that he did not detect the massacre earlier. But of course, since we want to put down criticism here such details as what actually happened are not important are they?

    Rearding your claims of Israeli jails were palestinians are treated in similar ways to what happened in Iraq, and that noone has access, it is pure nonsense. Amnesty International and the Red cross comitee has had full access to Israeli jails for some time. Why havent they reported this if it is the case? In Iraq these organisations did not eaven have access to the prision, yet what happened slipped out. In Israel they can question the inmates whenever they like, and still no such reports. The only claims of these atrocities comes from outside of Israel. Palestinians residing in the west bank claiming that this abuse is frequent in Israeli jails, without any evidence whatsoever.
    That sharon was there to stop the slaughter is what is nonsense. And you know it. I don't know what history you have been reading but that is not right. Sharon was there to slaughter and that is what he did. Althought christian fanatics may have played a role, Sharons was that of killing and slaughtering. That is also he is the worst elected leader for the state of Israel. He own none of the humanity that Yitzak Rabin did for instance.

    As for israeli prisons - well it is happening. I don't know why there has not been reports of this but there have been some reports by two main reporters and these tell a different story. And just because everything does not show up in the news or the papers does not make it any unreal. Amnesty was albeit given access to Jenin, but only after Jenin had been thoroughly cleared up and nothing worthy remained. Why was it exactly that Amnesty was not given access to Jenin straight away? Why was it they had to wait a certain amount of time? What was there to hide?

    I do not believe everybody makes up stories. Some do. Had the Abu Ghraib accusations come unescorted by the pictures would you have believed the accusations? I am assuming a no. There are also pictures from israeli prisons and these are used for blackmails.

    It was also israeli soldiers who only a few years back decided to not fight for the government calling the actions they undertook inhumane. Are you saying these soldiers were just traitors and lying? Hardly.

    http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Spe...ian%20Women.htm

    http://www.islamonline.net/english/...article15.shtml
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/...article03.shtml
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/...article40.shtml

    The reporters responsible for the news: Samer Khuwayera & Hanadi Dwaikat, IOL Correspondents

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/int...fm?id=104642004


    You take a look at these and then tell me that all these people are simply lying and gaining what exactly?

    I regret not being able to show you any sources from the Times, The Independent. I really can't answer why these news have been neglected and don't you worry I am awaiting a reply from Amnesty too.

    What evidence are you looking for? (Not that you should believe everything you read) but are you truly expecting israeli prison guards (those in question not all naturally) to just let their victims walk out with pictures, signatures, statements? Is that not unrealistic. How many victims of sexual harrassment, abuse or rape have evidence?
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    (Original post by Outrageous)
    That sharon was there to stop the slaughter is what is nonsense. And you know it. I don't know what history you have been reading but that is not right. Sharon was there to slaughter and that is what he did. Althought christian fanatics may have played a role, Sharons was that of killing and slaughtering.
    About every reliable source ( from amnesty and teh red cross to the united nations) seem to disagree with you on this matter. Sharon was given responsibility for the slaughter because he failed to predict it and failed to interfere before it happened. It was however the IDF that stoped it, under orders from Sharon.

    (Original post by Outrageous)
    As for israeli prisons - well it is happening. I don't know why there has not been reports of this but there have been some reports by two main reporters and these tell a different story. And just because everything does not show up in the news or the papers does not make it any unreal. Amnesty was albeit given access to Jenin, but only after Jenin had been thoroughly cleared up and nothing worthy remained. Why was it exactly that Amnesty was not given access to Jenin straight away? Why was it they had to wait a certain amount of time? What was there to hide?.
    Please give the source. The fact is that you have no reliable source to prove it is occuring. In Iraq pictures and confessions confirm the atrocities. That no such evidence has slipped out from Israeli prisions regardless of the fact that Amnesty are given full access is noteable. When it comes to Jenin the area was filled with explosives and crossfire. What other military power allows civilian personel to enter a crossfire? Also, Jenin is a great example of exhagurated claims of Israeli violations. The official UN report stated that about 40 people were killed out of which one third was Israeli soldiers and the majority of those remaining were palestinian armed militants. Meanwhile European and Palestinian press reported death tolls exceeding a 1000. Subsequent investigations (many performed by the BBC ) revealed that several palestinians had simply claimed to have lost doussins of relatives when in fact they had never had them.


    (Original post by Outrageous)
    I do not believe everybody makes up stories. Some do. Had the Abu Ghraib accusations come unescorted by the pictures would you have believed the accusations? I am assuming a no. .
    You have to evaluate all claims. When US army members and officials confess that there has been such atrocities then it is more reliable than when Iraqi interest groups accuse the US of it. Of course not all stories may come out to light, but that does not mean you should trust allegations made by a politically interested part when it is not backed by any evidence.

    (Original post by Outrageous)
    There are also pictures from israeli prisons and these are used for blackmails..
    Could you please specify this further?

    (Original post by Outrageous)
    It was also israeli soldiers who only a few years back decided to not fight for the government calling the actions they undertook inhumane. Are you saying these soldiers were just traitors and lying? Hardly.
    In every country you have people who refuse to do military service and you have those who disagree with the operations they perform. Some beleive war in itself to be inhumane. This does not imply that the country has severe violations of human rights in its prisions.

    If you beleive these sources to be certain then I must question why you do not considder these:
    http://www.haaretz.com
    http://www.jerusalempost.com

    Im sorry this link did not work in my browser. Thus I cant comment on it.

    (Original post by Outrageous)
    I regret not being able to show you any sources from the Times, The Independent. I really can't answer why these news have been neglected and don't you worry I am awaiting a reply from Amnesty too.
    .
    Little to comment on this except that there are reports by amnesty on Israeli violations, I never denied this. What I stated was that Israel receives much harder criticism in western media than any other nation guilty of similar violations.


    (Original post by Outrageous)
    What evidence are you looking for? (Not that you should believe everything you read) but are you truly expecting israeli prison guards (those in question not all naturally) to just let their victims walk out with pictures, signatures, statements? Is that not unrealistic. How many victims of sexual harrassment, abuse or rape have evidence?
    Unfortunately evidence is necessary. I beleive most courts around the globe conform to teh principle "innocent until the opposite is proved". This is also why very many people walk away freely after courtrules regarding a question of rape. It is sad that it is often not possible to prove when these crimes has been commited by a person, but that does not mean we should judge people without evidence.
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    Argh damn I lost my entire reply to you. Too long to write again so heres its is much as I could remember:


    I am not sure what particular articles you want my comment on. Specify by linking the exact articles.

    What is your veiw on this:

    http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_p...rime_hist.html

    http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_p...%20murder.html

    http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_p...d_of_oslo.html

    http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/site_p...nites_war.html


    If Sharon is guilty then why would he allow illegal settlements to keep building and existing?

    To answer your question posed, then yes the focus on Israel is strong. The US is equally guilty you say. Well in what context? (I agree on this with you though) What equal crimes are we referring to? Are you now saying there are rapes taking place in israeli prisons of palestinians? Or something different? Name the US admin crimes although it should be fairly easy.

    You answered yourself why rape is hard to proof and wghy rapist get away so easily. Its a very tricky crime and albeit some people may lie I would suggest that you have to be completely morally void to accuse anybody of rape. Its not even funny. No matter what that person did to you. And I find it hard to believe that all these women are lying.

    I link that link again. Hope it works. If not let me know:

    http://www.news.scotsman.com/interna...m?id=104642004

    or:

    http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=104642004

    Amnesty did go to Jenin but only after a certain amount of time. They were not permitted inside immediately. Why not? Unles you have something to hide then it makes perfect sense. Why do I know? Because I worked with Amnesty during those times. So I am fully aware of what we did and didn't do. And not everything comes to our attention, mind you. Many crimes that we covered were not even covered in the news - at all.

    The proof I have found so far I have listed. I can't give more than that at present time. Many things are just not covered. The US conflict only got covered because it leaked out from a loyal US soldier. Imagine the horrification had it been US soldiers at the hands of say Hamas and this was done to them? I think the answer would be a 3rd worldwar or something in that neighbourhood. I agree that the US and israeli admin are both guilty but yes the focus is different. Your guess is as good as mine. Why are you so surprised? I actually opened a similar topic on journalistic freedom though. It seems that certain news never reaches the masses.

    Oh and I would like to see your sources on those palestinian who lied about accussations or was it just number of their family members?
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    If the UN and Europe is to keep its crediability, then they will have to recognise that the Israely army has , given the circumstances, behaved in a more diciplinised manner than most armies in the world. Instead, the IDF is compared to the Gestapo, the separation fence is condemned harder than the massive atrocities carried out in every dictatorship on the Arab peninsula.

    Given this form of bias, I do not find it strange that Israel has no respect whatsoever for the UN, nor its resolutions.
    So your argument is that no one should oppose what Isreal is doing in Palistine because other people have done worst things in the past. I don't really think that this is justified I mean people have commited murder in the past does that mean that someone now who committed murder is justified in doing so. Yes there are people being unfairly held by the USA and I don't agree with that either. I just think that the UN should be working to prevent the problems in the Arab world but I don't think the argument that other people are doing worse things so we will hurt people and destroy their houses is really a fair argument.
 
 
 

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