The worst Tory Government since Thatcher. Watch

Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#1
Now don't get me wrong. This isn't going to be some lefty rant about "Toriesbaaad" or whatever.

I'm a one-nation conservative, and I'm sick and tired of seeing one-Nationism being stomped on by the current Government and the coalition before.

One-Nationism is about a respect for our constitution. Pushing Scotland toward independence is not a conservative thing to do. But that's not to say that devolution is wrong, much rather we should be devolving power, but not to countries, to cities themselves. So York, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Liverpool...

We shouldn't be members of the EU either, being One Nation is not consistent with being co-governed by lots of other nations.

We should be investing in social housing, building at least 70,000 council homes a year. We shouldn't have lowered corporation tax at a time when the country is going through difficulties, nor should the top rate of tax have been lowered to 45%.

We should be investing in more Garden cities, we should be investing in more nuclear energy without bowing down and licking the shoes of the Chinese to do so. We shouldn't be imposing the bedroom tax on the most vulnerable in our society and we shouldn't be cutting working tax credits.

We shouldn't have one million people having to live on food banks, we shouldn't be settling for £130m when Google owes us at least £1bn in unpaid tax. I understand capitalism and the benefits it brings, but a conservative government should be making sure that all of us are feeling the benefits of it.

I'm a conservative, a working class one, but there is very little conservative in this Government.
9
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#2
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#2
bump
0
reply
username749877
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#3
Report 3 years ago
#3
To start making devolution about devolving to cities rather than the countries of the UK would be seen by the Scots as disrespecting the constitution, and would push them further towards Independence.

We need a proper federal structure, with Westminster only dealing with the sort of matters that should be reserved such as defence and most foreign policy. England needs a parliament (or parliaments) instead of Westminster becoming a quasi-English parliament.

I agree with your views on Google, council houses and food banks. This Conservative government has not done the union, or those struggling at roughest edges of society any good.
0
reply
jamestg
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#4
Report 3 years ago
#4
You might want to check what one nation conservatism actually is to do with. It's not to do with Scottish independence or the EU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-nation_conservatism
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#5
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#5
(Original post by david9640)
To start making devolution about devolving to cities rather than the countries of the UK would be seen by the Scots as disrespecting the constitution, and would push them further towards Independence.

We need a proper federal structure, with Westminster only dealing with the sort of matters that should be reserved such as defence and most foreign policy. England needs a parliament (or parliaments) instead of Westminster becoming a quasi-English parliament.

I agree with your views on Google, council houses and food banks. This Conservative government has not done the union, or those struggling at roughest edges of society any good.
I don't support federalisation, it tends to work in bigger countries but a smaller island such as ours doesn't need it at all. A quasi federal nation I could support but not with devolution to indivdual nations, we are the UK, and we are one nation. We should be helping british families get by, not by cutting welfare, if we got the companies to pay the same taxes that normal working people pay then we could afford to help british families further. We could invest in education, bring back a tripartite system which allocates pupils to the studies and careers that they are most suited to. We could make sure that our british families aren't reliant on food banks. By holding big business to account we can make sure that corporate interests are not more powerful than the nations interests. Getting rid of PFIs in our health service would be a start.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#6
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#6
(Original post by jamestg)
You might want to check what one nation conservatism actually is to do with. It's not to do with Scottish independence or the EU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-nation_conservatism
It was concieved before the EU was. It still exists today in the likes of Rees-Mogg and William Hague to name but 2.
0
reply
jamestg
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#7
Report 3 years ago
#7
(Original post by Lime-man)
It was concieved before the EU was. It still exists today in the likes of Rees-Mogg and William Hague to name but 2.
What's your point?
0
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#8
Report 3 years ago
#8
"Towards the end of the 19th century, the party moved away from paternalism in favour of free market capitalism, but fears of extremism during the interwar period caused the revival of one-nation conservatism. The philosophy continued to be held by the party throughout the post-war consensus until the rise of the New Right, which attributed the country's social and economic troubles to one-nation conservatism"

Since we are still living under the New Right crap, yep, the conservative party is not one nation at all.
It's one nation ins the same labour was "socialist" under Blair. It wasn't.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#9
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#9
(Original post by jamestg)
What's your point?
MY point is that one nation conservatism still exists today, and that the things I had mentioned are the form that it takes. If Disraeli were alive today he wouldn't be very happy.

(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
"Towards the end of the 19th century, the party moved away from paternalism in favour of free market capitalism, but fears of extremism during the interwar period caused the revival of one-nation conservatism. The philosophy continued to be held by the party throughout the post-war consensus until the rise of the New Right, which attributed the country's social and economic troubles to one-nation conservatism"

Since we are still living under the New Right crap, yep, the conservative party is not one nation at all.
It's one nation ins the same labour was "socialist" under Blair. It wasn't.
I dislike the new right like the labour left dislike the Blairites. There are many things about the current government that I like, but many things that I do not. Their efforts against unionism is one of those things that I don't like.
0
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#10
Report 3 years ago
#10
(Original post by Lime-man)



I dislike the new right like the labour left dislike the Blairites. There are many things about the current government that I like, but many things that I do not. Their efforts against unionism is one of those things that I don't like.
As a lefty

*shakes hand*


I like the liberalism with regard to social life bit. But that's about it.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#11
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#11
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
As a lefty

*shakes hand*


I like the liberalism with regard to social life bit. But that's about it.
So how much of a left are you?
0
reply
pol pot noodles
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#12
Report 3 years ago
#12
(Original post by Lime-man)
Now don't get me wrong. This isn't going to be some lefty rant about "Toriesbaaad" or whatever.

I'm a one-nation conservative, and I'm sick and tired of seeing one-Nationism being stomped on by the current Government and the coalition before.

One-Nationism is about a respect for our constitution. Pushing Scotland toward independence is not a conservative thing to do. But that's not to say that devolution is wrong, much rather we should be devolving power, but not to countries, to cities themselves. So York, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Liverpool...

We shouldn't be members of the EU either, being One Nation is not consistent with being co-governed by lots of other nations.

We should be investing in social housing, building at least 70,000 council homes a year. We shouldn't have lowered corporation tax at a time when the country is going through difficulties, nor should the top rate of tax have been lowered to 45%.

We should be investing in more Garden cities, we should be investing in more nuclear energy without bowing down and licking the shoes of the Chinese to do so. We shouldn't be imposing the bedroom tax on the most vulnerable in our society and we shouldn't be cutting working tax credits.

We shouldn't have one million people having to live on food banks, we shouldn't be settling for £130m when Google owes us at least £1bn in unpaid tax. I understand capitalism and the benefits it brings, but a conservative government should be making sure that all of us are feeling the benefits of it.

I'm a conservative, a working class one, but there is very little conservative in this Government.
Worst Tory government since Thatcher...there have only been two since then, Major and Cameron.
I agree with you on social housing.
For everything else, you claim to be a conservative but the fact you've pretty much parroted Labour's spin on everything makes me suspect you're more left-wing than you let on.
0
reply
ChaoticButterfly
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#13
Report 3 years ago
#13
Disraeli justified his ideas by his belief in an organic society in which the different classes have natural obligations to one another.[4] He saw society as naturally hierarchical and emphasised the obligation of those at the top to those below. This was based in the feudal concept of noblesse oblige, which asserted that the aristocracy had an obligation to be generous and honourable; to Disraeli, this implied that government should be paternalistic.[5] Unlike the New Right, one-nation conservatism takes a pragmatic and non-ideological approach to politics and accepts the need for flexible policies; one-nation conservatives have often sought compromise with their ideological opponents for the sake of social stability.[7] Disraeli justified his views pragmatically by arguing that, should the ruling class become indifferent to the suffering of the people, society would become unstable and social revolution would become a possibility.


There is a lot of that I have problems with. Like the idea that the hierarchy and class system should be kept in place (something the neoliberal theory is better on, but in practice leaves a lot to be desired). Or that the reason to provide support for the plebs is to stop a social revolution happening. But the notion that the classes that do exist have an obligation to each other, the rich and powerful have an obligation to look after the poor. That is a million miles better than New Right with it's dog eat dog social Darwinism attitude to society. It;s ok to tread over people since they deserve it. But most importantly one nation toryism isn't dogmatic. So when something like 2008 happens maybe it is time to stop using the same ideology and theories that led to that. That also means it is not intrinsically hostile to concepts such as the NHS. Conservative governments in the post war era did not seek to undermine the welfare state like the New Right do.



(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Worst Tory government since Thatcher...there have only been two since then, Major and Cameron.
I agree with you on social housing.
For everything else, you claim to be a conservative but the fact you've pretty much parroted Labour's spin on everything makes me suspect you're more left-wing than you let on.
Only if you have a profoundly tunnel vision understanding of left and right wing. Thinking the state build more council houses does not make you left wing in itself at all. It's fits right in with the one nation view of the wealthy and powerful having an obligation to look after those nearer the bottom. A concept so thoroughly rejected by neoliberlalism when it is the state getting involved and used in such a way to "help" people. The fact people like you cry communist at that is part of the problem.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#14
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#14
(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Worst Tory government since Thatcher...there have only been two since then, Major and Cameron.
I agree with you on social housing.
For everything else, you claim to be a conservative but the fact you've pretty much parroted Labour's spin on everything makes me suspect you're more left-wing than you let on.
Labour are right in some areas, but wrong in so many others. I'm not a socialist or a social democrat, and I do not subscribe to the PC brigade that is Labour. It isn't about left-right wing, it's about a pragmatic approach to ensure the union and that we remain one-nation. When a one-nation tory says "we're all in this together", it isn't empty rhetoric.
0
reply
username749877
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#15
Report 3 years ago
#15
(Original post by Lime-man)
I don't support federalisation, it tends to work in bigger countries but a smaller island such as ours doesn't need it at all. A quasi federal nation I could support but not with devolution to indivdual nations, we are the UK, and we are one nation. We should be helping british families get by, not by cutting welfare, if we got the companies to pay the same taxes that normal working people pay then we could afford to help british families further. We could invest in education, bring back a tripartite system which allocates pupils to the studies and careers that they are most suited to. We could make sure that our british families aren't reliant on food banks. By holding big business to account we can make sure that corporate interests are not more powerful than the nations interests. Getting rid of PFIs in our health service would be a start.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but in terms of Scotland it's irrelevant to discuss any of our ideologies about the matter because that is just sky thinking, we need to discuss the reality of the situation. Giving Scotland some control over income tax and APD isn't going to appease the political situation here, you won't be able to have any 'one nation' politics if that nation breaks up.

The Conservative party needs to get back to traditional working class, aspirational Conservatism. Building council houses (and replacing any that are sold), building affordable homes, raising the minimum wage to a living wage (properly), supporting small businesses, creating an economy that enables anyone to move up in life; that's a Conservative party that even I, as someone who is left wing, would struggle not to vote for.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#16
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#16
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Disraeli justified his ideas by his belief in an organic society in which the different classes have natural obligations to one another.[4] He saw society as naturally hierarchical and emphasised the obligation of those at the top to those below. This was based in the feudal concept of noblesse oblige, which asserted that the aristocracy had an obligation to be generous and honourable; to Disraeli, this implied that government should be paternalistic.[5] Unlike the New Right, one-nation conservatism takes a pragmatic and non-ideological approach to politics and accepts the need for flexible policies; one-nation conservatives have often sought compromise with their ideological opponents for the sake of social stability.[7] Disraeli justified his views pragmatically by arguing that, should the ruling class become indifferent to the suffering of the people, society would become unstable and social revolution would become a possibility.


There is a lot of that I have problems with. Like the idea that the hierarchy and class system should be kept in place. Or that the reason to provide support for the plebs is to stop a social revolution happening. But the notion that the classes that do exist have an obligation to each other, the rich and powerful have an obligation to look after the poor. That is a million miles better than New Right with it's dog eat dog social Darwinism attitude to society. It;s ok to tread over people since they deserve it. But most importantly one nation toryism isn't dogmatic. So when something like 2008 happens maybe it is time to stop using the same ideology and theories that led to that. That also means it is not intrinsically hostile to concepts such as the NHS. Conservative governments in the post war era did not seek to undermine the welfare state like the New Right do.

Before thatcher we were in a pickle, and it's a pickle that we still haven't quite escaped from, I believe that Thatcher helped the economical situation somewhat but in doing so she created severe economic uncertainty. There were elements on one-nationism in her, she did support families, the right-to-buy had elements of one-nationism in it. But since she brought about the new right we've just had boom and bust and boom and bust. It's time that we started taking a little bit more control in the economy, got companies paying their taxes, support british families and end this cycle of boom and bust. It's clear that when we let neoliberalism get out of hand bad things happen. We can support working people, small businesses and british families, and keep the economy from crashing, but that can only happen if we hold capitalism to account,

Only if you have a profoundly tunnel vision understanding of left and right wing. Thinking we should build more council houses does not make you left wing in itself at all. It's fits right in with the one nation view of the wealthy and powerful having an obligation to look after those nearer the bottom. A concept so thoroughly rejected by neoliberlalism. The fact people like you cry communist at that is part of the problem.

This is true, neoliberalism is but one section of the right wing.

It's like saying that anarcho-communism is the only ideology of the left.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#17
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#17
(Original post by david9640)
I agree with a lot of what you say, but in terms of Scotland it's irrelevant to discuss any of our ideologies about the matter because that is just sky thinking, we need to discuss the reality of the situation. Giving Scotland some control over income tax and APD isn't going to appease the political situation here, you won't be able to have any 'one nation' politics if that nation breaks up.

The Conservative party needs to get back to traditional working class, aspirational Conservatism. Building council houses (and replacing any that are sold), building affordable homes, raising the minimum wage to a living wage (properly), supporting small businesses, creating an economy that enables anyone to move up in life; that's a Conservative party that even I, as someone who is left wing, would struggle not to vote for.
I agree, reversing devolution is counter productive though, and may cause further nationalism among the scots. DEvolving to cities is a step in the right direction and could in turn bring about a more unified approach.

One-nationism sells well, which is why David Cameron claimed disraeli as his favourite ever PM and why they never fail to drop the one-nation rhetoric. However, they talk one-nation but enact new right, and as such it's frustrating for someone like myself.
0
reply
pol pot noodles
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#18
Report 3 years ago
#18
(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Only if you have a profoundly tunnel vision understanding of left and right wing. Thinking the state build more council houses does not make you left wing in itself at all. It's fits right in with the one nation view of the wealthy and powerful having an obligation to look after those nearer the bottom. A concept so thoroughly rejected by neoliberlalism when it is the state getting involved and used in such a way to "help" people. The fact people like you cry communist at that is part of the problem.
What the bloody hell are you harping on about?
I said I agreed with him that more social housing should be built. I never once mentioned the word communist. That's stupid facetious hyperbole on your part.

I accused him of being left-wing because he's pretty much taken the Labour line on most of those policies. Like the 'bedroom tax' and food banks. Or an investment deal with China being us bowing down and licking their shoes.
0
reply
Lime-man
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#19
Report Thread starter 3 years ago
#19
(Original post by pol pot noodles)
What the bloody hell are you harping on about?
I said I agreed with him that more social housing should be built. I never once mentioned the word communist. That's stupid facetious hyperbole on your part.

I accused him of being left-wing because he's pretty much taken the Labour line on most of those policies. Like the 'bedroom tax' and food banks. Or an investment deal with China being us bowing down and licking their shoes.
The Labour line on those issues is also the One-Nationist line too. Mark Pritchard MP (tory), was also against the China deal.

As for the welfare bill, Heidi Allen, Johnny Mercer, David Davis and Zac Goldsmith are but a few to openly express their disagreement with the bill.

IT isn't about left wing or right wing, it's about the effects that these changes will have on the british people, which is what one nation toryism is all about

Also, for the record:


It you want, take the test yourself

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
0
reply
pol pot noodles
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#20
Report 3 years ago
#20
(Original post by Lime-man)
The Labour line on those issues is also the One-Nationist line too. Mark Pritchard MP (tory), was also against the China deal.

As for the welfare bill, Heidi Allen, Johnny Mercer, David Davis and Zac Goldsmith are but a few to openly express their disagreement with the bill.

IT isn't about left wing or right wing, it's about the effects that these changes will have on the british people, which is what one nation toryism is all about

Also, for the record:


It you want, take the test yourself

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
I also disagree with the China deal, on national security grounds. My issue was with you calling it the Tories grovelling to the Chinese, which is something a Labour activist might say simply because it's a chance to slate the Tories.

The fact that Tory MPs have dissented over something proves little either way.

A million people don't rely on food banks either- there were a million total uses of food banks. Incidentally food poverty has reduced since the last Labour government and at the same time we have an obesity crisis. Free supply creates it's own demand. But you've taken the Labour spin on the issue.
Working Tax credits harm social mobility. If you pay people to be poor they'll remain poor. We now have millions of unskilled middle aged people who instead of moving up the career ladder have stayed at the bottom and are clogging up the jobs market for the young. They're also a subsidy on bad business, at least according to John McDonnell a few years ago, before he saw an opportunity to score some political points over the issue. Now they're a vital public service. And again you've taken the Labour spin on the issue.
Same with the top rate income tax cut. Never mind the fact Labour only raised it to 50% as a scorched-earth tactic before they were voted out at the 2010 election and that 45% is still relatively high, never mind the fact that the rich pay more in income tax and a higher percentage of the total treasury receipts from income tax than ever before in history.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How has the start of this academic year been for you?

Loving it - gonna be a great year (109)
17.99%
It's just nice to be back! (163)
26.9%
Not great so far... (217)
35.81%
I want to drop out! (117)
19.31%

Watched Threads

View All