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What's with the obsession of trying to make muslims integrate? What about jews? Watch

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    (Original post by LeoAngliae)
    So then I was right to call you on your comment, and your snarky reply on demographics was completely irrelevant.

    Should you go back and edit your comment?
    I think I shall leave it there and allow my previous post to serve as clarification on the matter.
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    (Original post by Ravenous)
    Just a fyi, Jewish people are the most geographically segregated community in the UK.
    Geographically segregated? You mean concentrated?

    And that's not entirely relevant given that even when Jewish kids go to a Jewish school of the Conservative or Orthodox sort, they are still essentially integrated with the community, they speak English, they have high rates of workforce participation and accomplishment and they share British values.

    Can you point to any serious issues in the mainstream Jewish community with integration (including language skills, workforce participation etc)? On the other hand, do you deny there are serious issues of those sorts within the Muslim community?
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    Integration is a polite, half-admission of the real issue.


    If Black people celebrate Kwanzaa and seek to peacefully improve their standing in society - Not an issue


    If Sikhs celebrate Diwali - fine by me



    Multiculturalism is fine, what is not fine, is gunning down a load of civilians in a restaurant or at a rock concert.
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    (Original post by LeoAngliae)
    Geographically segregated? You mean concentrated?

    And that's not entirely relevant given that even when Jewish kids go to a Jewish school of the Conservative or Orthodox sort, they are still essentially integrated with the community, they speak English, they have high rates of workforce participation and accomplishment and they share British values.

    Can you point to any serious issues in the mainstream Jewish community with integration (including language skills, workforce participation etc)? On the other hand, do you deny there are serious issues of those sorts within the Muslim community?
    Really? I'm sorry but I don't see it. They don't even talk to other people, they have their own buses etc and when you see them in supermarkets etc, they don't seem to be "integrating". Workforce participation? I haven't seen any orthodox jewish doctors and cashiers? Again I'm talking about the ones who wear the clothing and seem to isolate themselves from the community. Do I just live in a place where there is the highest concentration of them? What serious issues are there though?? I see SO many Muslim doctors, muslims working in supermarkets and shops, muslim lawyers, muslim teachers, muslim MPs, muslims in the council, muslims working in charities. The children go to mixed schools, the parents go to find jobs which obviously involves speaking english.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I think I shall leave it there and allow my previous post to serve as clarification on the matter.
    Your choice. Separately from voting, is it your contention that English Jews (or the wealthy ones) donate disproportionately to the Conservatives?

    Frankly, it's more complex than that. Jewish people are often progressives (90% of American Jews vote Democratic, the other 10% is probably Sumner Redstone by biomass). British Jews traditionally have been left-wing, and inclined to vote Labour except that in recent years many have felt the Labour Party no longer represents them.

    It's clearly not some sort of ethnic chauvinism given they supported Blair over Howard, and Cameron over Miliband
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    (Original post by TheProteinSheikh)
    Integration is a polite, half-admission of the real issue.


    If Black people celebrate Kwanzaa and seek to peacefully improve their standing in society - Not an issue


    If Sikhs celebrate Diwali - fine by me



    Multiculturalism is fine, what is not fine, is gunning down a load of civilians in a restaurant or at a rock concert.
    Do you think I'm okay with that? You think many muslims just laugh behind their screens victoriously? They are obviously downright pissed off of seeing again another person gunning down civilians. It isn't always about religion. You might as well round up all the domestic abusers and peodphiles in the UK and classify them all as Christian.

    Believe me I KNOW how annoyed people are when seeing another incident and muslims probably are way more annoyed.
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Do you think I'm okay with that? You think many muslims just laugh behind their screens victoriously? They are obviously downright pissed off of seeing again another person gunning down civilians. It isn't always about religion. You might as well round up all the domestic abusers and peodphiles in the UK and classify them all as Christian.

    Believe me I KNOW how annoyed people are when seeing another incident and muslims probably are way more annoyed.
    This difference is.


    When the Monty Python chaps made that everysperm is sacred song mocking Catholics, they didn't suffer a Charlie Hebdo style attack courtesy of the Pope.
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    (Original post by TheProteinSheikh)
    This difference is.


    When the Monty Python chaps made that everysperm is sacred song mocking Catholics, they didn't suffer a Charlie Hebdo style attack courtesy of the Pope.
    That's irrelevant, the level of offense differs. Btw why you called Sheikh? Are you an ex muslim?
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    (Original post by LeoAngliae)
    Geographically segregated? You mean concentrated?

    And that's not entirely relevant given that even when Jewish kids go to a Jewish school of the Conservative or Orthodox sort, they are still essentially integrated with the community, they speak English, they have high rates of workforce participation and accomplishment and they share British values.

    Can you point to any serious issues in the mainstream Jewish community with integration (including language skills, workforce participation etc)? On the other hand, do you deny there are serious issues of those sorts within the Muslim community?
    Yes of course there are issues with the Muslim community such as female workforce participation, but these things are sorting themselves out, the rate for female Pakistanis and Bangladehis is the fastest growing. Within a few decasdes it will have reached the average. http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialibr...2011%20(1).pdf Same thing with language, it's mainly the oldergeneration that may struggle with English, the ones brought up in the UK will know it fluently.
    Is the problem of Haredi Jewish men not working getting fixed though? Only 15% of them in Stamford Hill are in full time employment according to the Economist. http://www.economist.com/news/britai...s-shtetls-mind
    They aren't just some insignificant group btw, 3/4 of Jewish births in the UK are born into Haredi families.
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    That's irrelevant, the level of offense differs. Btw why you called Sheikh? Are you an ex muslim?


    So you are justifying the Charlie Hebdo attacks?
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    (Original post by LeoAngliae)
    Your choice. Separately from voting, is it your contention that English Jews (or the wealthy ones) donate disproportionately to the Conservatives?

    Frankly, it's more complex than that. Jewish people are often progressives (90% of American Jews vote Democratic, the other 10% is probably Sumner Redstone by biomass). British Jews traditionally have been left-wing, and inclined to vote Labour except that in recent years many have felt the Labour Party no longer represents them.

    It's clearly not some sort of ethnic chauvinism given they supported Blair over Howard, and Cameron over Miliband
    The majority of wealthy Jews, and indeed most wealthy people in general, tend to vote Conservatives.


    It literally has nothing to do with "progressiveness" or "values" but economics. The Conservatives will enrich you but the Labour Party will share the riches.

    Members of the Charedi community, who are often less wealthier than their Jewish counterparts and in a sense, similar to the British Muslim community in terms of their values, vote Labour (Hackney North + Gateshead).



    The fact that Muslims in the UK do not contribute or are less likely to be involved in political participation, compared with those of other faiths, has meant that they become an easy scapegoat for politicians who are seeking to deflect attention away from themselves.

    At the end of the day, politics comes down to money, not values and that is becoming increasingly apparent especially over in the States. Candidates who get funding from corporations are unlikely to speak out against the corporation or the sector it operates in because when it comes to the next campaign, they simply won't get funded.


    The Conservative Party is targeting Labour supporters, whether it be through trade union bills/campaign finance bills, electoral reform or just general voters, in order to demonize them, marginalize them and make them pariahs.
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    Because jews intergrate
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Before you read, I just want to say I'm not hating on jews.

    Is it cos of extremism? How is that Muslims are told to speak english, integrate etc when that's exactly what they are doing? The Muslims mix into secondary schools and primary schools and colleges etc. What about jews? Why does noone ever talk about them? Why is it a taboo subject when it comes to Jews? They live is their own communities, many probably not even knowing english, a school was just closed down because of not being taught english, they won't mix into our schools or speak to us, you barely see them in work places etc. So why pick on the Muslims? They don't all look the same! And why are politicians rounding up Muslims? A group of people from many different backgrounds and colours? Many aren't even identified easily as Muslims! Many muslims aspire to be doctors and lawyers etc they don't just sit around and wait to go to ISIS. So what exactly do they mean by integrate?

    Is there some kind of plan? Cos of ISIS? I ain't gonna read hate comments, ain't nobody got time for that. Please be polite.
    What rubbish. Jews have one or two mainly Jewish communities such as Golders Green, but not on the same level as whole cities like Bradford and Luton. I can't imagine there are any British Jews who don't speak English, people who don't speak English are poor economic migrants from the developing world and British Jews mostly came to the UK 50 or more years ago from European countries. And Jews are very well integrated into British society, they hold numerous high positions in the finance, media and other industries.

    I don't see the point of this thread at all. I agree that labelling all Muslims as non-English speaking potential terrorists couldn't be more wrong, but comparing the positions of Jews and Muslims (more accurately, Pakistanis and East London Bangladeshis) is totally missing the point.
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Before you read, I just want to say I'm not hating on jews.

    Is it cos of extremism? How is that Muslims are told to speak english, integrate etc when that's exactly what they are doing? The Muslims mix into secondary schools and primary schools and colleges etc. What about jews? Why does noone ever talk about them? Why is it a taboo subject when it comes to Jews? They live is their own communities, many probably not even knowing english, a school was just closed down because of not being taught english, they won't mix into our schools or speak to us, you barely see them in work places etc. So why pick on the Muslims? They don't all look the same! And why are politicians rounding up Muslims? A group of people from many different backgrounds and colours? Many aren't even identified easily as Muslims! Many muslims aspire to be doctors and lawyers etc they don't just sit around and wait to go to ISIS. So what exactly do they mean by integrate?

    Is there some kind of plan? Cos of ISIS? I ain't gonna read hate comments, ain't nobody got time for that. Please be polite.
    Here's my thoughts:
    • - The Jewish population is smaller
    • - 'Jewish' is an ambiguous term relating to race or religion.
    • - The exclusive nature of Judaism means you are Jewish mostly through blood, they care very little nor desire universal conversion.
    • - Islam desires people to convert to Islam (only in the long run)
    • - Reform Judaism is very tolerant, perfect for integrating into western society.
    • - Islam sticks by an objective and divine code of law (the Quran).
    • - Christianity is a branch of Judaism, the UK was founded on Christian ideas, and is therefore influenced by Judaism in one way or another.
    • - Islam is a reboot of Christianity, but with distinguished, cultural influences from the Arab world, making it harder to integrate.
    • - Judaism is significantly older than Islam, and has had a presence (albeit minor) in the UK for a long time.
    Ultimately, the Jewish community is pretty much like the Chinese community, portrayed as hard-working, private and quiet individuals. They can quietly integrate. My expertise level for this topic is only to A Level however.
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    Yes you are right Muslims are integrated you can see it by just walking the streets of London. Muslims are more integrated than many other communities most Muslims in the UK are born here and speak fluent English. Jews are not integrated as much they don't live in areas like mine they stick to places where they are large in number.
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    (Original post by Copperknickers)
    What rubbish. Jews have one or two mainly Jewish communities such as Golders Green, but not on the same level as whole cities like Bradford and Luton.
    That's only because there are about 10x more Muslims in the Uk than Jews. Jews are still the most segregated community. http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialibr...ore-mixing.pdf

    (Original post by Copperknickers)
    I can't imagine there are any British Jews who don't speak English, people who don't speak English are poor economic migrants from the developing world and British Jews mostly came to the UK 50 or more years ago from European countries.
    It's true that most of them will know English, but many of them still prefer to speak to each other in Yiddish in some of their communities, even if their families have been here for generations
    (Original post by Copperknickers)
    And Jews are very well integrated into British society, they hold numerous high positions in the finance, media and other industries.
    Most of those Jews are only Jewish by race and not religion. Btw, there are also plenty of Muslim in numerous high positions in industries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Muslims
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Sure:

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...UH4BolkYGe2zTg
    Yes, sorry forgot about the less orthodox jews. I am talking about the ultra orthadox ones, which there are MANY communities of them in my area, with their clothing etc and none of them go to local schools. They have their own businesses, restaurants, schools etc where only them come in out of I see(I'm sure other people are free to be their clients but the schools especially)

    Contributed what? May I ask?

    And no, I am not "denying" the terrorism present, I am well aware of that, but in a Muslim community there would be more against terrorism. Instead of constantly pointing fingers at Muslims, I think they should just speak to islamic leaders etc to make sure that when its friday prayers or time to have meetup, tell the people who are having crazy thoughts that terrorism is not right.

    Oh yeah and not just Muslims have left to join ISIS, many non-muslims have fled too, they just seem to make the muslims stand out which makes it seem like so many muslims are fleeing the country.

    Thank you very much for your input
    It's not just Muslims who have joined ISIS?? I am totally sure that you're not going to find many Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists or atheists in their ranks! (Perhaps you were making a joke when you said that?)

    And part of the reason is Jews only make up 0.5% of the UK population

    (http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...lly-does-count)

    Now certainly in my experience, the majority of Jews are moderate and indistinguishable from any other Briton, so I assume that the proportion of hasidic Jews, who do not seem to wish to integrate, is much less than 0.5% of the population.

    Therefore the question of integration with Jews isn't a problem, or if it is, it's to much smaller scale than with Muslims. In quite a few towns and cities across England there are communities of Muslims who are unwilling to integrate with other communities. This is my mother's experience as a Muslim refugee who came here in the 90s and my own experience from attending university in Manchester.

    In contrast, Jews, whilst maintaining their own distinct culture, seem far more happy to become British and embrace the values of this country - in my experience.

    I think that's why people perceive it to be a problem predominantly linked to some Muslims.
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    (Original post by TheProteinSheikh)
    So you are justifying the Charlie Hebdo attacks?
    Nope, i believe noone deserved to die.
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Really? I'm sorry but I don't see it. They don't even talk to other people, they have their own buses etc and when you see them in supermarkets etc, they don't seem to be "integrating". Workforce participation? I haven't seen any orthodox jewish doctors and cashiers? Again I'm talking about the ones who wear the clothing and seem to isolate themselves from the community. Do I just live in a place where there is the highest concentration of them? What serious issues are there though?? I see SO many Muslim doctors, muslims working in supermarkets and shops, muslim lawyers, muslim teachers, muslim MPs, muslims in the council, muslims working in charities. The children go to mixed schools, the parents go to find jobs which obviously involves speaking english.
    Jews only represent 0.5% of the population, and hasidic Jews, in my experience, are outnumbered by moderates. Hasidic Jews do not tend to integrate because of their orthodox views, but they make up such a tiny percentage of the country that not many people view it as a problem. I think you must live in one of the very few areas (some places in London/Manchester) which have a high number of Jews.
    Apparently the constituency with the highest percentage of Jews is Golders Green with 10%.
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    Before you read, I just want to say I'm not hating on jews.

    Is it cos of extremism? How is that Muslims are told to speak english, integrate etc when that's exactly what they are doing? The Muslims mix into secondary schools and primary schools and colleges etc. What about jews? Why does noone ever talk about them? Why is it a taboo subject when it comes to Jews? They live is their own communities, many probably not even knowing english, a school was just closed down because of not being taught english, they won't mix into our schools or speak to us, you barely see them in work places etc. So why pick on the Muslims? They don't all look the same! And why are politicians rounding up Muslims? A group of people from many different backgrounds and colours? Many aren't even identified easily as Muslims! Many muslims aspire to be doctors and lawyers etc they don't just sit around and wait to go to ISIS. So what exactly do they mean by integrate?

    Is there some kind of plan? Cos of ISIS? I ain't gonna read hate comments, ain't nobody got time for that. Please be polite.
    I can see the amount of hate here towards the conservatives but there was an article posted by the Guardian i believe saying that the conservatives wanted to ensure all muslims were literate as they believe that if people are more literate, they can spot signs of radicalisation and inform local authorities. This helps REDUCE he number of people being radicalised so you can hate all you want but i personally see nothing wrong.

    The 'Obsession' to integrate if you will, is that many of those who choose to hand their lives to ISIS are generally social outcasts who feel like they're not wanted by society and so by integrating them into the society, they feel as if they're part of the wider community.

    The jews aren't targeted as in the western world jews aren't demonised to the scale in which muslims are. When was the last time you read a British newspaper reporting a 'Jewish Terrorist'? Never. Furthermore, the Jews tend to be from the middle and upper classes so it would be ridiculous of the conservatives to target the jews as they arguably provide more for the British economy than the muslims do as the vast majority of muslims in the UK are from the working class.

    You say that "muslims mix into secondary schools" yet in my academy in West London with over 1100 students, i would say that 80% of the students are muslims and they don't generally mix with students who aren't muslims like me and so i would argue that they haven't really 'integrated'. The vast majority of schools either have a overwhelmingly large number of muslims or have a very small number.

    You also mentioned that "you barely see them(jews) in work places" do you know why that is? Britain has a population of 64million and yet only around 300,000 jews in contrast to the muslim population of around 2.7 million and so inevitably you're going to see more muslims and be able to identify them.

    You also say that many jews don't know english, you should visit Golders Green in North London where there is a large jewish presence with kosher butcher's ALL of whom speak perfectly fine english.
 
 
 
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