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Rhodes must fall campaign backfires. Watch

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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Great idea.
    As long as you want to guarantee no other private benefactors leave you money. It's their money and its their choice. People trying to shame them will only have one result.
    Quite allowing this to happen against their wishes would close down many charitable organisations who rely upon this type of donation.

    But i suspect this wouldn't matter to some as long as they get to shame one person.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)

    Really they just need to put in place someone with a spine. I had thought that that was impossible, but recently both the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor of Oxford are on record telling students, one way or another, to grow up, so perhaps there's hope.
    I think there's hope.

    This is an almost complete defeat for the "Rhodes Must Fall" campaign. The statue stays but equally importantly the plaque honouring him (I think next to his old room?) on the college building opposite also remains it having previously been announced that it would be taken down.

    If the Provost is kicked out the victory will be total and complete.

    Current students think that the university belongs to them. That they are somehow special. It doesn't, and they aren't. Oxford was around long before they went up, and will still be around long after they leave.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Any students at Birmingham University on this thread?

    You institution was founded by Cecil's great mate, the political sponsor of his Jameson Raid, a rabid racist and imperialist, Joseph Chamberlain.

    There is a huge clock tower on your campus named after him.

    Don't you think it must fall? Isn't that clock an an affront to every African student there? Can they possibly feel safe with it looming over them as they walk by, a vivid reminder of the "white man rules" philosophy?

    "Old Joe must fall!" "Old Joe must fall!"
    Well, perhaps Churchill College, Cambridge, students ought to protest about the name of their institution, if Churchill was an imperialist racist like Rhodes.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    What did they think would happen if they treated their most generous donor with such contempt?
    Their decision would have been pointless no matter how they voted. The building is listed and they would never have been given consent to alter it.

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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    We'll see how she fares.

    The biggest job of any Head of College is to keep the money flowing in and to preserve its reputation. She seems to be failing in the first and has definitely failed in the second. The college has become a laughing stock.

    Finally, politically she needs to keep the SCR on board. Hard to imagine this is going down well with most of them.

    She wouldn't be the first Provost to be discreetly asked to retire.
    It isn't true that it's become a laughing stock. The campaign to remove Rhodes' statue has a valid analysis behind it.

    The right wing media treatment of it as a laughing stock is motivated by racist attitudes and the fake celebration of Britain's colonialist past as a triumph when in fact it was exploitative, grim and unintelligent.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    The student is question is actually called Ntokozo Qwabe.

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    At Oxford, yes. He didn't initiate the Rhodes Must Fall campaign, which is what I was talking about (and Nulli), he has picked it up and applied it to the statue at Oriel.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It isn't true that it's become a laughing stock. The campaign to remove Rhodes' statue has a valid analysis behind it.

    The right wing media treatment of it as a laughing stock is motivated by racist attitudes and the fake celebration of Britain's colonialist past as a triumph when in fact it was exploitative, grim and unintelligent.
    The Rhodes campaign failed the moment it started in the UK because they never took into account the laws of listed buildings.

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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    I think there's hope.

    This is an almost complete defeat for the "Rhodes Must Fall" campaign. The statue stays but equally importantly the plaque honouring him (I think next to his old room?) on the college building opposite also remains it having previously been announced that it would be taken down.

    If the Provost is kicked out the victory will be total and complete.

    Current students think that the university belongs to them. That they are somehow special. It doesn't, and they aren't. Oxford was around long before they went up, and will still be around long after they leave.
    Listening to this kind of triumphalism is starting to make me change my mind and advocate removing the statue and breaking it into little pieces.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    The Rhodes campaign failed the moment it started in the UK because they never took into account the laws of listed buildings.

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    I really don't think that's the point - there are always laws and by-laws regarding changes in this country - the campaign was making a point, but the reality tends to be a different matter. I don't think the campaign has failed so far, as it has now also exposed what may appear to be racist attitudes of at least one major Oxford potential donor and also of much of the British media, which clearly still fantasises (despite mountains of evidence to the contrary) that the Empire was a sunny period of joy and prosperity for all those this country colonised and that Rhodes was a cross between a social worker, humanitarian and philosopher.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I really don't think that's the point - there are always laws and by-laws regarding changes in this country - the campaign was making a point, but the reality tends to be a different matter. I don't think the campaign has failed so far, as it has now also exposed the racist attitudes of at least one major Oxford potential donor and also of much of the British media, which clearly still fantasises (despite mountains of evidence to the contrary) that the Empire was a sunny period of joy and prosperity for all those this country colonised and that Rhodes was a cross between a social worker, humanitarian and philosopher.
    No, the campaign set out to remove the statue and they failed.

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The right wing media treatment of it as a laughing stock is motivated by racist attitudes and the fake celebration of Britain's colonialist past as a triumph when in fact it was exploitative, grim and unintelligent.
    Nope. It is motivated by the commonsense need to consider historical figures holistically and in the light of the times in which they lived, and by their achievements rather than by entirely out-of-place modern ideas, and to expose rank hypocrisy in the protestors.

    And the campaign is a laughing stock.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Listening to this kind of triumphalism is starting to make me change my mind and advocate removing the statue and breaking it into little pieces.
    It wouldn't be the first time emotion got the better of you during this discussion, Surprises.

    I saw that you were advocating the college "naming and shaming" a potential £100 million benefactor who had threatened to withdraw it, just to make sure he or she DEFINITELY does.

    That has to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever read on TSR, although smashing a statue to little pieces because you are annoyed that a campaign to save it had succeeded must follow a close second...
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Listening to this kind of triumphalism is starting to make me change my mind and advocate removing the statue and breaking it into little pieces.
    Advocating vandalism of a historical building. Is that promoting illegal activity?

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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    It wouldn't be the first time emotion got the better of you during this discussion, Surprises.

    I saw that you were advocating the college "naming and shaming" a potential £100 million benefactor who had threatened to withdraw it.

    That has to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever read on TSR, although smashing a statue to little pieces because you are annoyed that a campaign to save it had succeeded must follow a close second...
    If he/she was named and shamed for this, it wouldn't be a bad outcome - having said that you would give such a vast sum to your old college and then throwing your toys out of the pram because they discussed the idea of removing a statue that celebrates a leading figure in racist and colonialist exploitation of Africa is pretty horrid. I'm not convinced their name should not be known. Perhaps that's why Nulli started publicly speculating on who it might be, earlier in the thread.

    Smashing it up metaphorically was in my mind at the time, I don't really favour smashing up historical statuary, but if the fake outrage of the Right over this story reaches any greater level, I could certainly understand it if black and BAME students at Oxford decided to take matters into their own hands and pulverised the face of Rhodes with a selection of eggs and the like.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    the Empire was a sunny period of joy and prosperity for all those this country colonised and that Rhodes was a cross between a social worker, humanitarian and philosopher.
    The irony is that the African leaders of this campaign against him are themselves beneficiaries of his personal legacy. And I am not talking about one Rhodes Scholar but the entire elite there.

    UCT is arguably the best university in Africa, and educates South Africa's brightest and best. The reason there was a statue of him for the current students to cover in [email protected], is because the beautiful campus there wouldn't exist, but for his bequest.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    The irony is that the African leaders of this campaign against him are themselves beneficiaries of his personal legacy. And I am not talking about one Rhodes Scholar but the entire elite there.

    UCT is arguably the best university in Africa, and educates South Africa's brightest and best. The reason there was a statue of him for the current students to cover in [email protected], is because the beautiful campus there wouldn't exist, but for his bequest.
    Funny how they despise the man but love his money.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    The irony is that the African leaders of this campaign against him are themselves beneficiaries of his personal legacy. And I am not talking about one Rhodes Scholar but the entire elite there.

    UCT is arguably the best university in Africa, and educates South Africa's brightest and best. The reason there was a statue of him for the current students to cover in [email protected], is because the beautiful campus there wouldn't exist, but for his bequest.
    The university itself wasn't created or funded by Rhodes, it had many bequests and was in the main funded by the diamond and gold industries. Yes, it sits on Groote Schuur, the Rhodes estate, so it has a nice environment because of that and space to expand, but that's not the same as being beneficiaries of his personal legacy as you put it, other than marginally.

    In any event, the history of the funding of institutions is often at odds with their current vision or purpose. Britain grew rich (or at least, the upper classes of it did) on the slave trade - nobody now advocates that we honour the memory of the slave trade because it was instrumental in the industrialisation and progress of this country, or that modern Britons are hypocritical to critique the Triangle Trade.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Funny how they despise the man but love his money.
    That's an offensive smear, they don't love Rhodes' money. Some black students have managed to obtain access to the (still) very white university system in Africa. That's hardly the same as 'loving his money'.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Funny how they despise the man but love his money.
    Did you not listen to them, they don't think it's Rhodes' money, they think it is their money because he "stole" it, and as decendants of native Rhodesians it is actually theirs
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So the money from rich individuals or organizations is all that mattered and trumped any kind of debate or the will of normal people/students. You are celebrating that? What a crap lefty...

    I have no idea who this Cecil dude was, and I;m not fond of all this lets ban everything from students stuff. But come one.

    How on earth s this a victory?



    Well I think Churchill was colossal **** head to be honest. But he makes a good deity in the role this country played in fighting fascism I guess. Also didn't Obama get rid of statue of the guy due to his families history and colonialism? "the students are free to go somewhere else" You sound like a right wing libertarian or Tory.
    How was Churchill a ****? Yes he was a colonialist, but so was everyone else in Britain. He still supported India's right to be an independent country.

    And you say 'I guess' he played a role in fighting fascism, making it sound like he played some menial role, whereas in actuality he resisted pressure to make a deal with Hitler and consequently Britain for the first 3 years of the war was the only major power fighting the Nazis.
 
 
 
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