lilylf
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Any ideas on how to answer this essay question 'To what extent do dreams set the scene for tragedy in Keats poems' thank you so much if you do help
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AnkitKapoor
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(Original post by lilylf)
Any ideas on how to answer this essay question 'To what extent do dreams set the scene for tragedy in Keats poems' thank you so much if you do help
Look at typical conventions for tragedy, and then think how Keats uses dreams to explore them, how do dreams create a tragic mood, is it loss of dreams, coping the tragedy of living through dreaming etc.
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lilylf
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(Original post by AnkitKapoor)
Look at typical conventions for tragedy, and then think how Keats uses dreams to explore them, how do dreams create a tragic mood, is it loss of dreams, coping the tragedy of living through dreaming etc.
Which conventions of tragedy? Could the tragic fall and downfall of the protagonist be one?
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richtealeggings
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(Original post by lilylf)
Which conventions of tragedy? Could the tragic fall and downfall of the protagonist be one?
In terms of tragedy, Keats employs the use of dreams as a gothic technique for key revelations. The characters often revel in some joy or happiness which presents a sense of hope for the reader; the elimination of this 'hope' is what makes keats poems tragic. In relation to your question, 'dreams' setting the scene for tragedy, i think it can be agreed upon that dreams in keats poems set the scene for tragedy in different ways from providing characters with a temporary illusion of joy/hapiness/immortality which then leaves characters disillusioned upon awakening (reality) -->(this is shown in Eve of st.agnes-Madeline sees Porphyro as immortal in her dream but when she awakes the stark contrast between dream and reality causes her to think that he is close to death because he looks so 'pallid, chill, and drear', also later on in the poem there is a questionable scene where the lines between dreams and reality blur together and it is speculated that Porphyro rapes Madeline- this is tragic because Madeline is presented as a 'chaste'/innocent and pure woman, she has been described as a vulnerable and dove like creature but now she is described as a 'decieved thing', 'dove forlorn', 'lost with sick unpruned wings'- we get the idea she is no longer pure and chaste, that is tragic for Madeline in its own part, in relation to context- societal pressure may have led her to then run away with Porphyro because she would've been rejected for being no longer chaste/ virgin)


Dreams can set the scene for tragedy because of the illusion it creates, so when reality kicks in, that sense of 'disillusion' provides an overwhelming feeling of loss. (loss of hope, love, life, kindred, identity, freedom, choice, fight/spirit etc)-->thats how i'd approach the question tbh.

Dreams -> LOSS = tragedy

In La belle dame sans merci the knight is lulled to sleep by the faery women- the dream is presented as a premonition that suggests the knights fate is the fate of those who maybe be tempted by obsession (because of his sexual/romantic obsession with the faery women)
By the end of the poem we can see that the knight experiences loss of freedom that came with falling in love, ultimatley the loss of his life and tragically the loss of his identity.
His dream perhaps symbolizes the underlying threat in the poem, so the reference of grief, woe 'pale kings and princes' and the statement 'La belle dame sans merci' provide an element of tragedy because the knights fate is presented as inevitable.

--> Death is tragic because of the loss of life-opportunity and also the fact that the poem is about the tragic fall of a great man contributes to this idea of loss-tragedy is hieghtened- a knight is seen as brave and herioc, the squirrel, a seemingly weak creature whose 'granary is full' is presented in a better position than the knight, the knight is shown as no longer brave and 'great' rather weak and feeble 'pale' and close to death, no hope of surviving '..no birds sing' -tragic

In Isabella, her dream depicts Lorenzo's corpse which leads her to a realization, at her naivety at believing what her brothers told her- she matures and develops through the visit of Lorenzo's spirit 'Sweet spirit, thou has school'd my infancy' but not in the way we expect. She decapitates Lorenzo and obsesses over his 'head' (as any normal person would :afraid:) and plants him in a basil pot and waters the plant with her 'tears.' The tragedy builds from the loss of thier young love, the loss of Isabella's lover, loss of a life physically (Lorenzo) and emotionally (Isabella) and peace (for Isabella). Also it is tragic because Isabella suffers and it is her loss of happiness that affects us.
This quote couldn't ring more louder 'Even the bees, little almsmen of spring- bowers, Know there is richest juice in poison flowers'

I hope that helps, best i could do without my notes
(i've only studies La Belle, Isabelle and Eve of st. agnes as part of Keats poems)
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Annasuccia
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Which poems are you gonna include? If you haven't decided yet, maybe you could use La Belle Dame as an argument - the dream is where the tragedy happens, falling into the "dream" means men are enthralled by the Lady, etc. depending on your interpretation of the poem ofc. For counterargument you could use St Anges' Eve, where Madeline's vision/dream doesn't really cause a tragedy (they elope so I guess it's a good ending). If you extend the definition of "dreams" maybe Ode to the Nightingale could be included too, it's basically about Keats imagining himself with the nightingale (how I see it). The part about the magical forest especially, and how the contrast between effortless/natural talent (the "dream") and painstaking, awkward reality creates a scene of tragedy.
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lilylf
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(Original post by richtealeggings)
In terms of tragedy, Keats employs the use of dreams as a gothic technique for key revelations. The characters often revel in some joy or happiness which presents a sense of hope for the reader; the elimination of this 'hope' is what makes keats poems tragic. In relation to your question, 'dreams' setting the scene for tragedy, i think it can be agreed upon that dreams in keats poems set the scene for tragedy in different ways from providing characters with a temporary illusion of joy/hapiness/immortality which then leaves characters disillusioned upon awakening (reality) -->(this is shown in Eve of st.agnes-Madeline sees Porphyro as immortal in her dream but when she awakes the stark contrast between dream and reality causes her to think that he is close to death because he looks so 'pallid, chill, and drear', also later on in the poem there is a questionable scene where the lines between dreams and reality blur together and it is speculated that Porphyro rapes Madeline- this is tragic because Madeline is presented as a 'chaste'/innocent and pure woman, she has been described as a vulnerable and dove like creature but now she is described as a 'decieved thing', 'dove forlorn', 'lost with sick unpruned wings'- we get the idea she is no longer pure and chaste, that is tragic for Madeline in its own part, in relation to context- societal pressure may have led her to then run away with Porphyro because she would've been rejected for being no longer chaste/ virgin)


Dreams can set the scene for tragedy because of the illusion it creates, so when reality kicks in, that sense of 'disillusion' provides an overwhelming feeling of loss. (loss of hope, love, life, kindred, identity, freedom, choice, fight/spirit etc)-->thats how i'd approach the question tbh.

Dreams -> LOSS = tragedy

In La belle dame sans merci the knight is lulled to sleep by the faery women- the dream is presented as a premonition that suggests the knights fate is the fate of those who maybe be tempted by obsession (because of his sexual/romantic obsession with the faery women)
By the end of the poem we can see that the knight experiences loss of freedom that came with falling in love, ultimatley the loss of his life and tragically the loss of his identity.
His dream perhaps symbolizes the underlying threat in the poem, so the reference of grief, woe 'pale kings and princes' and the statement 'La belle dame sans merci' provide an element of tragedy because the knights fate is presented as inevitable.

--> Death is tragic because of the loss of life-opportunity and also the fact that the poem is about the tragic fall of a great man contributes to this idea of loss-tragedy is hieghtened- a knight is seen as brave and herioc, the squirrel, a seemingly weak creature whose 'granary is full' is presented in a better position than the knight, the knight is shown as no longer brave and 'great' rather weak and feeble 'pale' and close to death, no hope of surviving '..no birds sing' -tragic

In Isabella, her dream depicts Lorenzo's corpse which leads her to a realization, at her naivety at believing what her brothers told her- she matures and develops through the visit of Lorenzo's spirit 'Sweet spirit, thou has school'd my infancy' but not in the way we expect. She decapitates Lorenzo and obsesses over his 'head' (as any normal person would :afraid:) and plants him in a basil pot and waters the plant with her 'tears.' The tragedy builds from the loss of thier young love, the loss of Isabella's lover, loss of a life physically (Lorenzo) and emotionally (Isabella) and peace (for Isabella). Also it is tragic because Isabella suffers and it is her loss of happiness that affects us.
This quote couldn't ring more louder 'Even the bees, little almsmen of spring- bowers, Know there is richest juice in poison flowers'

I hope that helps, best i could do without my notes
(i've only studies La Belle, Isabelle and Eve of st. agnes as part of Keats poems)
Wow, thank you your really good
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richtealeggings
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(Original post by lilylf)
Wow, thank you your really good
thanks i just really like keats poems

i hope it helped with you're essay etc., if you need me to clarify anything let me know (or if you need any help overall in English other texts-or tragedy links etc. pm me,)

i'm really glad you posted this- it was useful revision for me since i've just started the next unit -social and political protest writing (if you're doing crime, and need help with that, i;ve done Browning a lot and really enjoy his poems, pm me )
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