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Muslims aren't the problem, Islam is Watch

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    (Original post by FCA342)
    What Quran have been reading? Did you not pass along the quote: “Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)
    Why have you edited this verse and posted it not in full?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Why have you edited this verse and posted it not in full?
    It is shortened to fit the context and for thick and close minded people like you as providing you with the whole quote would be using too much of your brain capacity which I don't feel like you have. If you wish to look up the whole quote, the chapter number and verse number are provided for you.

    Thank you.
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    It is shortened to fit the context and for thick and close minded people like you as providing you with the whole quote would be using too much of your brain capacity which I don't feel like you have. If you wish to look up the whole quote, the chapter number and verse number are provided for you.

    Thank you.
    It's shortened because if you post it in full it looks rather different and if you then post the verse that follows you're lies are exposed more people are starting to see this verse for the lie it is.

    But I can see you have the usual poor people skills and the inability to post without resorting to a personal attack that seems to be part of your faith.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    It's shortened because if you post it in full it looks rather different and if you then post the verse that follows you're lies are exposed more people are starting to see this verse for the lie it is.

    But I can see you have the usual poor people skills and the inability to post without resorting to a personal attack that seems to be part of your faith.
    As I've already said I provided you with the chapter and verse number, so lying in this case to explain why I've posted a shortened version of the verse is not a reason you should resort to. You may want to refer to the original post where I have already discussed 'manipulating quotes to ease your understanding' or to use quotes with an inability to understand the science behind it. And no, the original meaning behind that quote stays the same even if I posted the full quote, now do yourself a favour and look the quote up and make sure to contact scholars who will be able to help you interpret that particular quote.
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    As I've already said I provided you with the chapter and verse number, so lying in this case to explain why I've posted a shortened version of the verse is not a reason you should resort to. You may want to refer to the original post where I have already discussed 'manipulating quotes to ease your understanding' or to use quotes with an inability to understand the science behind it. And no, the original meaning behind that quote stays the same even if I posted the full quote, now do yourself a favour and look the quote up and make sure to contact scholars who will be able to help you interpret that particular quote.
    You complain about people cherry picking then post a verse with 'certain bits' that are rather important edited out

    It's almost like you know it's a lie and just hoped that people would be stupid enough not to spot it

    But as I said the lie is well know and your response shows you know you've been caught out.

    'manipulating quotes to ease your understanding' haha are you saying the quran isn't clear?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    You complain about people cherry picking then post a verse with 'certain bits' that are rather important edited out

    It's almost like you know it's a lie and just hoped that people would be stupid enough not to spot it

    But as I said the lie is well know and your response shows you know you've been caught out.

    'manipulating quotes to ease your understanding' haha are you saying the quran isn't clear?
    I'm not sure whether your reading my replies or are replying to yourself. And where have I complained about ANYONE cherry picking and posting a verse? Caught out doing what? And indeed, the Quran is a very complex book and requires years of learning and knowledge.
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    I'm not sure whether your reading my replies or are replying to yourself. And where have I complained about ANYONE cherry picking and posting a verse? Caught out doing what? And indeed, the Quran is a very complex book and requires years of learning and knowledge.
    the post where you said

    'will you be you taking a qoute from the quran with a lack of knowledge behind the science to it.'

    as I said you gripe about people cherry picking verse's then do the same and even worse edit the full verse to remove the bit that you find uncomfortable

    as I said post the full verse then the one that follows

    or are you too ashamed to post the verse form your holy book so people can actual see them in full and make their own mind up rather than having to rely on the 'science' (an oxymoron if ever there was one) of the quran

    Sorry to break it to you but you may be able to fool a few people from a village somewhere in the 3rd world but this is a student forum and on the whole we won't just accept your dishonesty
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    the Quran is a very complex book and requires years of learning and knowledge.
    Yet the quran claims it is clear

    We have sent down to you clear verses... [2:99]

    You seem to be saying the quran is wrong in this respect
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    “Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)
    The verse in full

    Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

    followed by the next verse

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    the post where you said

    'will you be you taking a qoute from the quran with a lack of knowledge behind the science to it.'

    as I said you gripe about people cherry picking verse's then do the same and even worse edit the full verse to remove the bit that you find uncomfortable

    as I said post the full verse then the one that follows

    or are you too ashamed to post the verse form your holy book so people can actual see them in full and make their own mind up rather than having to rely on the 'science' (an oxymoron if ever there was one) of the quran

    Sorry to break it to you but you may be able to fool a few people from a village somewhere in the 3rd world but this is a student forum and on the whole we won't just accept your dishonesty
    Your replies show me how incapable you are to show me any understanding of what I am saying, how on earth are you able to understand a complex book such as the Quran, yet you're picking out quotes without understanding any meaning behind it.The implication of the aforementioned text is that all of the verses of the Quran are clear and that the Muslim scripture doesn’t contain any passages that are obscure or difficult to grasp. Now I've taken the reponsibility and looked up the whole quote that you quoted and I shall now clear your misunderstanding. “In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear…”?
    "Whoever is confused about any of the verses which are not entirely clear should try to understand it in the light of that which is entirely clear, if he is a scholar who is able to use evidence in order to reach conclusions."
    Otherwise he should ask the scholars, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not”[al-Nahl 16:43].
    I hope that clears out your misunderstanding, my friend.
    Now to answer the second part of your post.
    How am I trying to fool anyone when I have provided you with the verse and chapter number for you to look up yourself and even contact a scholar if needed?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    The verse in full

    Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

    followed by the next verse

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
    Yes, now contact a scholar to help you understand that quote.
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    Muslims aren't the "Children of Israel", that would be the Jews, so doesnt even relate to them anyway, it always makes me laugh when they post that verse in defense of the killing verses.
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    What Quran have been reading? Did you not pass along the quote: “Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)
    And this is one of many quotes that explain what you mean by the word 'barbaric' which you might need to revisit.
    Ironic that you chose 5:32 (and therefore 5:33) as this it possibly the verse that most unequivocally shows that the Quran encourages violence against disbelievers and opponents.
    It is also the verse most misquoted by Muslims in an attempt to show that the Quran does not encourage violence!

    The verses in full...
    "32. For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
    33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    So when we look at the passage you quoted in context, we can see that it specifically allows killing of those guilty of "mischief" (fasad - a term that covers a wide range of activities, including "disobeying Allah's law" ), and those who "wage war" against Allah and Muhammad.

    Firstly, in should be noted that as Allah has no earthly physical presence, you cannot literally "wage war" against him, so it must be referring to his message, or Islam itself.
    Second, Ibn Kathir explains "wage war" as including "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".
    Third, in his tafsir, Ibn Kathir states that the verse is general in use and applies to all those who commit the crimes listed - so no historical context is available.

    Now I can predict your next reply which will you be you taking a qoute from the quran with a lack of knowledge behind the science to it. It is easy to manipulate the qoute to your beneift however by only gaining a qoute without knowledge, understanding or correct intellect,
    Which, ironically, is exactly what you have just done!

    Now, the question remains: 'Is islam a barbaric religion?' Well, to answer this question I have to bring in the role of the media which indeed does perpetuate Islam as a barbaric religion because obviously, there's no white pedophiles who are christian, hitler wasn't white.
    Are you high?
    The only thing we need to look at to determine whether Islam is a "barbaric" religion (personally, I think this over-simplifies the issue - it does indeed include the barbaric, but it also includes other features), is to look at the contents of the Quran and sunnah, along with major tafsir for reference. Nothing else.
    Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jimmy Saville, whoever, have no bearing on the argument whatsoever. Neither does the behaviour od Muhammad Emwazi, Anjem Choudary or Maajid Nawaz.
    Only the content of the ideology is relevant.
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    Your replies show me how incapable you are to show me any understanding of what I am saying,
    I'm more than capable it's just I don't believe your being honest (and your personal attacks tell me you are incapable of discussing this honestly)

    and you keep calling the quran complex when it claims it is clear now odd you expect me to believe YOU but not the quran

    But I've exposed your lies so I'll leave it there you can go back to calling me ignorant or stupid etc...
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Ironic that you chose 5:32 (and therefore 5:33) as this it possibly the verse that most unequivocally shows that the Quran encourages violence against disbelievers and opponents.
    It is also the verse most misquoted by Muslims in an attempt to show that the uran does not encourage violence!

    The verses in full...
    "32. For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
    33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    So when we look at the passage you quoted in context, we can see that it specifically allows killing of those guilty of "mischief" (fasad - a term that covers a wide range of activities, including "disobeying Allah's law", and those who "wage war" against Allah and Muhammad.

    Firstly, in should be noted that as Allah has no earthly physical presence, you cannot literally "wage war" against him, so it must be referring to his message, or Islam itself.
    Second, Ibn Kathir explains "wage war" as including "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".
    Third, in his tafsir, Ibn Kathir states that the verse is general in use and applies to all those who commit the crimes listed - so no historical context is available.

    Which, ironically, is exactly what you have just done!

    Are you high?
    The only thing we need to look at to determine whether Islam is a "barbaric" religion (personally, I think this over-simplifies the issue - it does indeed include the barbaric, but it also includes other features), is to look at the contents of the Quran and sunnah, along with major tafsir for reference. Nothing else.
    Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jimmy Saville, whoever, have no bearing on the argument whatsoever. Neither does the behaviour od Muhammad Emwazi, Anjem Choudaty or Maajid Nawaz.
    Only the content of the ideology is relevant.
    As always a much more measured and detailed response than I could bother to give.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    As always a much more measured and detailed response than I could bother to give.
    You have no knowledge about Islam therefore your unable to give me a more measured and detailed reponse. Moreover, if you didn't 'bother' you wouldnt have replied to me in the first place, however, I hope I have cleared your misunderstandings.
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    (Original post by tumshie)
    Muslims aren't the "Children of Israel", that would be the Jews, so doesnt even relate to them anyway, it always makes me laugh when they post that verse in defense of the killing verses.
    I know right it's why they remove the first bit for the quote as they know people would simply say Muslims are not the children of Israel so the verse isn't for you.

    But glad more and more people are seeing through this dishonesty
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    You have no knowledge about Islam therefore your unable to give me a more measured and detailed reponse. Moreover, if you didn't 'bother' you wouldnt have replied to me in the first place, however, I hope I have cleared your misunderstandings.
    I could but your replies are simply the angry responses of a Muslim who's been caught telling porkies and I'll reply as such
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    And indeed, the Quran is a very complex book and requires years of learning and knowledge.
    And yet, in the Quran, Allah says many times that it is a clear book, fully detailed, with much of it requiring no interpretation.
    The majority of the world's Muslims have not spent years studying the Quran. Does that mean that when they talk about Islam, they are probably wrong?

    I never see anyone claiming that people need to be expert scholars when they are posting verses that show Islam or Muhammad in a good light, only when the verses say things that are unacceptable in civilised 21st century societies.
    Why do you think that is?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    And yet, in the Quran, Allah says many times that it is a clear book, fully detailed, with much of it requiring no interpretation.
    The majority of the world's Muslims have not spent years studying the Quran. Does that mean that when they talk about Islam, they are probably wrong?

    I never see anyone claiming that people need to be expert scholars when they are posting verses that show Islam or Muhammad in a good light, only when the verses say things that are unacceptable in civilised 21st century societies.
    Why do you think that is?
    I just want you to read this reply I gve the gentleman before and take some understanding. And just to add to your last reply you might want to contact a scholar because you're understanding of the Quran is far more complex than mine.
    The verses were explained but there are certain verses that I myself do not understand indeed and therefore need scholarly assistance on it.
    Your replies show me how incapable you are to show me any understanding of what I am saying, how on earth are you able to understand a complex book such as the Quran, yet you're picking out quotes without understanding any meaning behind it.The implication of the aforementioned text is that all of the verses of the Quran are clear and that the Muslim scripture doesn’t contain any passages that are obscure or difficult to grasp. Now I've taken the reponsibility and looked up the whole quote that you quoted and I shall now clear your misunderstanding. “In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear…”? "Whoever is confused about any of the verses which are not entirely clear should try to understand it in the light of that which is entirely clear, if he is a scholar who is able to use evidence in order to reach conclusions."Otherwise he should ask the scholars, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not”[al-Nahl 16:43]. I hope that clears out your misunderstanding, my friend.Now to answer the second part of your post.How am I trying to fool anyone when I have provided you with the verse and chapter number for you to look up yourself and even contact a scholar if needed?
 
 
 
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