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Muslims aren't the problem, Islam is Watch

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    (Original post by Achaea)
    Why on earth do you careso much what QE2 and a few others post here? Islam is perfect, isn't it? It'sthe perfect divine revelation of a perfect god, isn't it? It's the fastestgrowing religion in the world, isn't it? (Or so some people claim.) So why doyou care so much about a few posts on a student forum that you have to keepgoing on and on about them? They're not going to hurt Perfect Islam, are they?Perfect Islam is strong enough to cope with a few critical posts that only a handful of people will ever see, or isn't it?'A full frontal offence against Islam', ROFL. You seem incredibly insecureabout a few posts on a forum. It's pretty weird. It's almost like you're notsecure in your faith, or assume that other Muslims aren't, and want to shutpeople up before they destroy your iman. Or you assume that Islam is such aweak ideology that criticism can destroy it. Otherwise, I really can'tunderstand why you're so desperately perturbed about this forum.
    Lol, you should've just stopped after the first question. The other stuff you said is obviously desperately contrived from me just asking wondering why he has devoted his time to hate on Islam? It's a fair question. Your whole paragraph seems so silly to contrive all that from me asking that simple question.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Lol, you should've just stopped after the first question. The other stuff you said is obviously desperately contrived from me just asking wondering why he has devoted his time to hate on Islam? It's a fair question. Your whole paragraph seems so silly to contrive all that from me asking that simple question.
    Why are you so obsessed with a bit of criticism of Islam on a student forum?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Without the Islamic instructions, it is unlikely that the same people would still think that apostates and adulterers should be killed.

    However, I also think that for anybody who has been brought up in a secular democracy, or who has had an balanced, evidence-based education, there is absolutely no excuse for insisting that such things are still justified or acceptable.
    Don't get me wrong, I do not deny that Islam is the major cause. But my issue is with this idea that humans are somewhat immune from blame for the beliefs they hold. With the resources we have available to us today, it is unacceptable that individuals such as Mehdi Hassan can believe that winged horses are real or that apostasy deserves the death penalty.

    Point being that the ideas are wrong but so are the people for believing it.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Don't get me wrong, I do not deny that Islam is the major cause. But my issue is with this idea that humans are somewhat immune from blame for the beliefs they hold. With the resources we have available to us today, it is unacceptable that individuals such as Mehdi Hassan can believe that winged horses are real or that apostasy deserves the death penalty.

    Point being that the ideas are wrong but so are the people for believing it.
    I agree to a point.
    You can't hold an illiterate goat herder in Somalia who has been raised to believe everything the imam tells them, to the same standards as British, public school educated, Oxford graduate Mehdi Hassan.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    You absolute troll, how am I the one obsessed? I swear, the kind of people on this forum do not cease to surpirse me.
    Because you've made endless posts in this thread shrieking and shouting about 'attacks' on Islam and a 'full frontal offence' against it. LOL. What on earth are you so afraid of? Is Islam going to dissolve in the face of a bit of criticism?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    This is a highly challengeable assertion. Islam is not a monolithic religion and, despite what most Muslims claim, they do not follow a literal interpretation of the scriptures. That is why we aren't in a far worse condition, not because the religion itself is benign.
    I'm glad you mentioned that. If that were the case, there could be real harm within other religions such as Catholicism and Judaism. Clearly, terroists are just following a pattern of abuse after, a long time ago, one person took the scriptures literally! Also if these people are taking the scriptures literally, they clearly ignore that parts where no Muslim should kill another or suicide is forbidden. Religion is all about interpretation - your interpretation shows what kind of person you are. So although, I think the point you made was SOMEWHAT valid, on the whole it's peoples fault not the religion. The religion just gives justification to those who wish to abuse it.
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    (Original post by Achaea)
    Because you've made endless posts in this thread shrieking and shouting about 'attacks' on Islam and a 'full frontal offence' against it. LOL. What on earth are you so afraid of? Is Islam going to dissolve in the face of a bit of criticism?
    Endless posts? You're not very good at math are you?
    I merely asked the guy what he does for a living and why are YOU so far up his behind for? I'm sure he can speak for himself.
    If you criticise any religion out there beit islam or christianity, hinduism etc noone's "afraid of their religion dissolving in the face of criticism"; that's what you people choose and want to believe when we answer back to your questions.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I agree to a point.
    You can't hold an illiterate goat herder in Somalia who has been raised to believe everything the imam tells them, to the same standards as British, public school educated, Oxford graduate Mehdi Hassan.
    Absolutely.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Endless posts? You're not very good at math are you?
    I merely asked the guy what he does for a living and why are YOU so far up his behind for? I'm sure he can speak for himself.
    If you criticise any religion out there beit islam or christianity, hinduism etc noone's "afraid of their religion dissolving in the face of criticism"; that's what you people choose and want to believe when we answer back to your questions.
    But you don't answer questions, do you? Not for the last few pages, anyway. You just shriek and yell and scream about a 'full frontal offence' on Islam. LOL. A few criticisms on a student forum are a 'full frontal offence'? What are you so frightened of?
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    (Original post by Achaea)
    But you don't answer questions, do you? Not for the last few pages, anyway. You just shriek and yell and scream about a 'full frontal offence' on Islam. LOL. A few criticisms on a student forum are a 'full frontal offence'? What are you so frightened of?
    Gosshh, since you have so much time on your hands mate, go ahead and look through my posts from a few months back and count exactly how many times I replied back before I realised I was wasting my time

    Again, for your second question read my previous reply. Noone's frightened of anything.
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    (Original post by NeoMarxist)
    IAlso if these people are taking the scriptures literally, they clearly ignore that parts where no Muslim should kill another
    If they do not consider them to be Muslims (due to apostasy, shirk, takfir, bidah, etc) then there is no prohibition on killing them.

    or suicide is forbidden
    This one is not so clear cut, but there are passages that say that a Muslim who "sells his life fighting in the way of Allah" will be rewarded in paradise. Simply ending one's own life for personal reasons is forbidden. Dying in the course of violent jihad is not. A lone horseman riding into certain death against overwhelming odds would be considered martyrdom, not suicide.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Noone's frightened of anything.
    Who is Noone? And why is he such a scaredypants?
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    why he has devoted his time to hate on Islam? It's a fair question. .
    any reasonable person should criticise Islam

    we should never forget that Islam does not only mean praying, going on hadj, fasting in ramadan etc

    Islam contains a political theory and a blueprint for society : and for this reason we should all oppose it in a a clear, unambiguous way, if we value representative democracy, no discrimination based on sex or religion, separation between religion and State, abolition of cruel and unusual punishments

    so, actually it is important that Muslims on TSR realise the extent of problems implied by their allegiance to Islam
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Then you need to be clearer

    But to clarify you believe you need a scholar to interpret a scholars opinion
    dont forget the scholar needed to interpret that scholars opinion. islamic ulama is boiling down to an endless chain of bureaucracy or 'jobs for the boys'
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    (Original post by FCA342)
    "Whoever is confused about any of the verses which are not entirely clear should try to understand it in the light of that which is entirely clear, if he is a scholar who is able to use evidence in order to reach conclusions."Otherwise he should ask the scholars, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not”[al-Nahl 16:43]. I hope that clears out your misunderstanding, my friend.Now to answer the second part of your post.How am I trying to fool anyone when I have provided you with the verse and chapter number for you to look up yourself and even contact a scholar if needed?
    al-Nahl 16:43 was directed specifically at the 'people who did not know' - ie the pagan arabs . so it wasnt a direction to you as a muslim. it advised them to ask 'people of the book' who were known as muslims, christians or jews or sabeans.

    there is no specific passage that requires you to go a so called 'scholar' to explain to you his opinion of another guys opinion 20 years ago.

    you are right about one thing though, you dont really have an understanding at all. but then you arnt alone on that id suggest pretty much all muslims dont have a full understanding of their own faith, let alone an agreement on all of it.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Don't get me wrong, I do not deny that Islam is the major cause. But my issue is with this idea that humans are somewhat immune from blame for the beliefs they hold. With the resources we have available to us today, it is unacceptable that individuals such as Mehdi Hassan can believe that winged horses are real or that apostasy deserves the death penalty.

    Point being that the ideas are wrong but so are the people for believing it.
    Religious education often starts young. I was taken to Church pretty much every Sunday since the day I was born, plus I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school. So in a way, it is possible to live in bubble whereby you come into little contact with beliefs that differ from your own.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Religious education often starts young. I was taken to Church pretty much every Sunday since the day I was born, plus I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school. So in a way, it is possible to live in bubble whereby you come into little contact with beliefs that differ from your own.
    and this is one of the reasons why TSR is important : on TSR, most surely, people are taken out of their comfort zone and challenged to reflect on their opinions and beliefs

    this is something that is dreaded by the "true believers", but usually they succumb to the fascination of debate and discussion : they are only human, after all
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    and this is one of the reasons why TSR is important : on TSR, most surely, people are taken out of their comfort zone and challenged to reflect on their opinions and beliefs

    this is something that is dreaded by the "true believers", but usually they succumb to the fascination of debate and discussion : they are only human, after all
    Quite true. I remember not being too impressed at first reading comments from people mocking religion. In fact, I remember making a few posts criticising mocking people's religious beliefs, only to then receive a neg rep from someone (back then you could leave an anonymous message with your neg rep) saying this :lol:



    Now, personally I would still try to avoid making such a comment and don't think it is very productive. I have some empathy in that case as I can at least understand their discomfort. There is always the possibility that there could be another me out there on TSR who has simply just never had their beliefs properly challenged and might benefit from having their beliefs questioned and having their mind opened to different views.
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    (Original post by tumshie)
    Muslims aren't the "Children of Israel", that would be the Jews, so doesnt even relate to them anyway, it always makes me laugh when they post that verse in defense of the killing verses.
    You need a bit of a history lesson lol.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    and this is one of the reasons why TSR is important : on TSR, most surely, people are taken out of their comfort zone and challenged to reflect on their opinions and beliefs
    But muhhh safe space....
 
 
 
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