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Muslims aren't the problem, Islam is Watch

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    (Original post by Jebedee)
    But muhhh safe space....
    in my view, nothing is safe from being questioned
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    in my view, nothing is safe from being questioned
    Sadly it doesn't seem to be the case on TSR. There are so many threads that get closed which shouldn't. There was a thread about "white genocide" the other day, and I spent time typing up a response, only for the thread to get deleted. These issues should be debated, challenged and proven wrong, as opposed to deleting them. Such threads are easily debunked, yet TSR would rather they go unchallenged.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    any reasonable person should criticise Islam
    I agree here, but only in the same way any reasonable person should criticise Christianity, or Buddhism.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Sadly it doesn't seem to be the case on TSR. There are so many threads that get closed which shouldn't. There was a thread about "white genocide" the other day, and I spent time typing up a response, only for the thread to get deleted. These issues should be debated, challenged and proven wrong, as opposed to deleting them. Such threads are easily debunked, yet TSR would rather they go unchallenged.
    Unfortunately, I have experienced TSR becoming, over the years, more and more politically correct

    I have been debating the most contentious topics (including Islam and racism) for years, without ever receiving a simple warning. Well, this has radically changed, in the last couple of years.

    I think that TSR desperately wants to "stay out of trouble", and avoid in particular to appear "white racist" or (astaghfirullah !) "islamophobic" : so, in this effort, it makes threads and posts disappear, closes topics, warns and bans users

    This is not what we were used to : in my view, while personal insults and advocating to break the law should in fact be sanctioned, there is no reason whatsoever to avoid discussing the most contentious issues.

    On the contrary, this is why we are here : personally, I have very little interest for discussing hairstyles or for going gaga over the latest singer, or even the latest religious proselytiser
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    It's such an interesting debate... It's always good to look at the argument from the other person's point of view and I think people are becoming more and more confused with culture and religion. They're so integrated these days that it can often be tricky to distinguish between them. I'm a Pakistani Muslim and I can say without a doubt that many of the issues the Muslim community comes under fire for such as the "oppression of women" or "condoning of terrorism" are strictly prohibited in The Quran (Holy book). A religion that promotes peace and in fact is translated as peace cannot surely encourage the kind of behaviour we are seeing these days. Culture on the other hand is a different story. I saw a great example of this on BBC Three tonight. The documentary was called "Is Britain racist?". A guy who was interviewed said something along the lines of "We don't want Muslims in Britain, bringing things like female genitalia mutilation with them". Nowhere in The Quran does it mention that Muslims must practice in female genitalia mutilation. It is simply a cultural thing. So, next time your here something to do with Islam, think to yourself, is it cultural or truly Islamic? The Muslims are most definitely at fault... and that's coming from a Muslim.
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    (Original post by Sgt_Haytham)
    This is what the Leader of the EDL party, 'Tommy' Robinson, said whilst on The Big Questions back in 2012. Although I do not follow or support his group, I do have to agree to this point.

    I watched the 39 minute long video and he was constantly cut when trying to make his points.


    Anyway, I do agree that the religion is at fault, not the people who follow it.

    What do you think?
    Coming back to the initial debate here, I would have to disagree. Islam is not the issue at all. Muslims are. However, it would be imprecise to point fingers to the entire Muslim Ummah. There are, unfortunately, Muslims around the world who hold views that are contrary to Islamic teachings. These ideologies are rooted from cultures and traditions that have absolutely been condemned by Islam. At a time when many Muslims are being stigmatized for atrocities they do not believe in not commit, it's fundamental to learn about Islam. Do your research. Read the authentic hadiths. The basic problem is that there are too many people; who like to refer to themselves as 'Muslims', who do not believe in free speech, democracy, human rights. And although I might sound sexist, many of these beliefs are held by men. Uneducated men who hold strong cultural views regarding women's rights which translates upon the women and now you have societies living amidst views that have no roots in Islam; committing crimes that make the rest of all the white sheeps ashamed of how a simplistic and pure faith can be twisted into repulsive ideologies.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I agree here, but only in the same way any reasonable person should criticise Christianity, or Buddhism.
    this goes without saying, dear friend

    in particular, Christianity is attacked day and night on this forum, but Christians are usually very cool about it
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Unfortunately, I have experienced TSR becoming, over the years, more and more politically correct

    I have been debating the most contentious topics (including Islam and racism) for years, without ever receiving a simple warning. Well, this has radically changed, in the last couple of years.

    I think that TSR desperately wants to "stay out of trouble", and avoid in particular to appear "racist" or (astaghfirullah !) "islamophobic" : so, in this effort, it makes threads and posts disappear, closes topics, warns and bans users

    This is not what we were used to : in my view, while personal insults and advocating to break the law should in fact be sanctioned, there is no reason whatsoever to avoid discussing the most contentious issues.

    On the contrary, this is why we are here : personally, I have very little interest for discussing hairstyles or for going gaga over the latest singer, or even the latest religious proselytiser
    I think there is possible pressure from advertisers and those financing TSR. The fact that they even block the Religion forum from being seen by people who don't have TSR accounts say a lot. It's the only sub-forum that is censored in this way. And I'm not sure if this is true, but I do recall somebody saying that TSR had discussed whether or not they should get rid of the Religion sub-forum.

    I counted 64 sub-forums on TSR, and the Religion sub-section is the 11th largest/most active on TSR by post count. So clearly it does attract people.
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    (Original post by usi227)
    It's such an interesting debate... It's always good to look at the argument from the other person's point of view and I think people are becoming more and more confused with culture and religion. They're so integrated these days that it can often be tricky to distinguish between them. I'm a Pakistani Muslim and I can say without a doubt that many of the issues the Muslim community comes under fire for such as the "oppression of women" or "condoning of terrorism" are strictly prohibited in The Quran (Holy book). A religion that promotes peace and in fact is translated as peace cannot surely encourage the kind of behaviour we are seeing these days. Culture on the other hand is a different story. I saw a great example of this on BBC Three tonight. The documentary was called "Is Britain racist?". A guy who was interviewed said something along the lines of "We don't want Muslims in Britain, bringing things like female genitalia mutilation with them". Nowhere in The Quran does it mention that Muslims must practice in female genitalia mutilation. It is simply a cultural thing. So, next time your here something to do with Islam, think to yourself, is it cultural or truly Islamic? The Muslims are most definitely at fault... and that's coming from a Muslim.
    As a Muslim, I could not agree more. Our people are embarrassing our faith. But we also have to realise that there will also be the black sheep among the crowd of the whites. During the Prophet's migration to Madinah, the Qur'an revealed verses about the Munafiqun (the hypocrites who lied when they said they believed in Allah swt). We have had to deal with the deceiving and the liars from the beginning of Islam. Certainly, the statistic of our 'black sheeps' have increased abundantly - more so after 9/11. But let's not assume it's all do to with Muslims. Bush messed up.
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    (Original post by geek999)
    Coming back to the initial debate here, I would have to disagree. Islam is not the issue at all. Muslims are. However, it would be imprecise to point fingers to the entire Muslim Ummah. There are, unfortunately, Muslims around the world who hold views that are contrary to Islamic teachings. These ideologies are rooted from cultures and traditions that have absolutely been condemned by Islam. At a time when many Muslims are being stigmatized for atrocities they do not believe in not commit, it's fundamental to learn about Islam. Do your research. Read the authentic hadiths. The basic problem is that there are too many people; who like to refer to themselves as 'Muslims', who do not believe in free speech, democracy, human rights. And although I might sound sexist, many of these beliefs are held by men. Uneducated men who hold strong cultural views regarding women's rights which translates upon the women and now you have societies living amidst views that have no roots in Islam; committing crimes that make the rest of all the white sheeps ashamed of how a simplistic and pure faith can be twisted into repulsive ideologies.
    can i ask if you believe men like mohammed and the early caliphs to have been properly practicing muslims?
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    (Original post by geek999)
    Islam is not the issue at all. Muslims are. .
    I think that you are entirely wrong.

    Practically all the Muslims I have met (and I did meet quite a few, and in particular, quite a few converts) are just normal people who want to get on with their lives, have a good job, raise families, pray, fast etc - In other words, just normal people

    No, the problem is Islam itself. It is difficult to underestimate how Islam goes against our most deeply-felt values : separation between religion and State, one law for all, abolition of physical punishments, no discrimination against homosexuals, apostates, adulterers and fornicators, "unbelievers", no "sexual segregation" etc etc

    And yes, although you will deny it, it is my deep conviction that Islam strongly discriminates against women. And yes, I have read the Quran, some "sahih" ahadith , sirah, books and books. I have learned some Arabic, I have discussed Islam both in "real life" and also on TSR for years (with several successive aspiring "scholars"), and my honest conviction is this:

    Muslims are not the problem, but Islam is. Islam (as any religion or ideology) will of course evolve with time (even if Muslims strongly deny this) , but it will take decades, if not centuries. In the meantime, it is a serious problem

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    Wow, there's a real obsession with Islam and Muslims on this forum....

    Islam isn't the problem per se, literalist interpretations of the religion are. It's just as awful as the other Abrahamic religions but would do just fine if everything in the Quran and "authentic Hadith" were not taken literally just like the Bible. BTW Tommy Robinson is a two-faced bigot and I am not interested in what he has to say after he was exposed as such.
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    (Original post by usi227)
    . A guy who was interviewed said something along the lines of "We don't want Muslims in Britain, bringing things like female genitalia mutilation with them". Nowhere in The Quran does it mention that Muslims must practice in female genitalia mutilation. It is simply a cultural thing. So, next time your here something to do with Islam, think to yourself, is it cultural or truly Islamic? The Muslims are most definitely at fault... and that's coming from a Muslim.
    just so you are aware male genitalia mutilation (circumcision ) is not mentioned in the quran either - it is mentioned in hadith in the same way there is some (loose reference) to muslim women having had circumscion (Hufaad)
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I think that you are entirely wrong.

    Practically all the Muslims I have met (and I did meet quite a few, and in particular, quite a few converts) are just normal people who want to get on with their lives, have a good job, raise families, pray, fast etc - In other words, just normal people

    No, the problem is Islam itself. It is difficult to underestimate how Islam goes against our most deeply-felt values : separation between religion and State, one law for all, abolition of physical punishments, no discrimination against homosexuals, apostates, "unbelievers" etc etc

    And yes, although you will deny it, it is my deep conviction that Islam strongly discriminates against women. And yes, I have read the Quran, ahadith , sirah, books and books. I have learned some Arabic, I have discussed Islam both in "real life" and also on TSR for years (with several successive aspiring "scholars", and my honest conviction is this:

    Muslims are not the problem, but Islam is. Islam (as any religion or ideology) will of course evolve with time (even if Muslims strongly deny this) , but it will take decades, if not centuries. In the meantime, it is a serious problem

    Best
    There's nothing wrong in having a belief contradictory to someone else's; mine in this case. I appreciate that.

    That being said, I would add myself to the numerous 'normal' Muslims that you highlight having met. I probably don't look like the typical Muslim, but I strongly believe in free speech and human rights. You say that Islam is against homosexuals. That it is a sin. Does the Bible teach the contrary then? Clearly not. And whilst Islam does not allow homosexuality, it does not add that we as humans should do 'x' and 'y' to them for being as they are. Mind you, I had a conversation regarding homosexuality between a bunch of Muslims recently and everyone agreed that certain topics, just like homosexuality, are too contemporary as subjects to be convinced that they are wrong. Homosexuality is a sin. Sex outside of marriage is a sin. So is adultery, lying, stealing etc. But where does Islam teach us to randomly start maltreating its people for these sins? What would be the use of judgement Day and Allah swt if we all jumped to each other's throats before Allah swt Himself could show us His mercy?
    As Muslims, we find it repulsive to hate a person for their sexuality. The Qur'an openly condemns the wrongful judgement of others. It is up to God to make the judgment - not for us humans.

    Yes, the worst sin a muslim can commit is Shirk (not believing in tawheed). But where in the Qur'an or the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) do you see disbelievers being stoned to death and made a scene out of? It is up to God to make His decision. Not us. Yet many sickening Muslims do make the judgments that they have no entitlement to. They scream Allah Hu Akbar to activities never even mentioned in the Qur'an.

    At the end of all this. many Muslims like us realise the bitter situation of our faith. Many of us choose to practise our faith with serenity and choose to live harmoniously. Others many not. We see our faith being pointed fingers at and we accept it. A few of my own close friends cannot bring themselves to respect Islam. I think it's totally acceptable. I also think that this is the how the Dunya was shaped. However, no matter what our believes are, there comes a time when the brutality of the blood that is shed overwhelms whatever grievance and whatever principle is being fought for. I will forever argue that many Muslims are wrong. I try to see the world through non-Muslim eyes; one should see it through our eyes. Live your life as a Muslim, for years enough to establish a strong understanding of Islam, and ask yourself how is it that we can live so peacefully and be appreciated by so many non-muslims despite being the Muslims that so many people think are nothing but extremist fools who have no tolerance for basic human rights.
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    (Original post by usi227)
    It's such an interesting debate... It's always good to look at the argument from the other person's point of view and I think people are becoming more and more confused with culture and religion. They're so integrated these days that it can often be tricky to distinguish between them.
    religions do not exist in a void : they exist as long as they are practiced by real people, in real societies, with a real culture

    so, an abstract "pure Islam" does not exist. Islam exists as long and in the form as it is practiced by people. And yes, people do have a "culture".

    However, a "pure Islam" has more or less been reconstructed as an abstract form : the idealised, perfect Islam of Muhammad, the sahaba, the "rightly guided" Caliphs. And it is precisely this "perfect", but warlike Islam, with its invasions and expansionist policy, the total separation between right and wrong, believers and unbelievers (heaven and hell) which is now inspiring the contemporary jihadis...

    In fact, it could be said that, in particular, "Western" jihadis are rootless people : they don't have a solid "culture" which protects them anymore (many are second, -third- generation immigrants, ill at ease in both their "old" and their "new" culture), so they grab the Salafi ideology as a ready-made identity, and they try to relive the epic saga of Muhammad and the sahaba.

    In any case, back to the start : you cannot effectively separate culture and religion, just like you cannot separate an ideology and the society in which it has developed

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    (Original post by Reformed)
    can i ask if you believe men like mohammed and the early caliphs to have been properly practicing muslims?
    My reference to the men being 'uneducated' was not that far stretched. I was referring to my own culture and politics - the likes of afghanistan, pakistan, iran etc where much of the men completely smashed the ideology of the education of women and equal rights. One such example would be the times during 1996 in Afghanistan. My references also points to areas like India and Pakistan - the suppression of women is a cultural issue. If anything, Islam uplifts women.


    The answer to your question therefore is yes, I do. Not because I have to. More so because I sincerely believe it.
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    (Original post by geek999)
    My reference to the men being 'uneducated' was not that far stretched. I was referring to my own culture and politics - the likes of afghanistan, pakistan, iran etc where much of the men completely smashed the ideology of the education of women and equal rights. One such example would be the times during 1996 in Afghanistan. My references also points to areas like India and Pakistan - the suppression of women is a cultural issue. If anything, Islam uplifts women.
    again to be fair to these muslims - islam has given them no cues on education of women and equal rights - there is nothing in the quran about sending your daughters to uinversity, letting them become successful in business, in politics etc. in fact islam sets out the guidelines that women should be indoors as much as possible, not aspire to own wealth, not spend time in education, not stand side by side with men in the business or public facing world at all in fact. i have asked this question many times- but how many female caliphs have there been in 1300 years of islam? how many female sheikhs ( of any note)? ayatollahs? how many islamic prophets did the quran name as female? i could go on you get the picture. the fact that pakistan has had a female prime minister having to fight all the hardline islamists along the way is noting to do with her islamic teachings and everything to do with her education in europe and ultimatly, the principles of democratic elections inspired by the departing british. thats not to say various part fo the orld have an ingrained patriarchal culture too ( we still have to a lessor extent in the west also btw) But islam has never challenged that - in fact it enhanced it. take a look at saudi arabia

    (Original post by geek999)
    The answer to your question therefore is yes, I do. Not because I have to. More so because I sincerely believe it.
    ok i ask becuase many of the things you complained about in earlier post the caliphs were certainly guilty of. these were not peaceful men by any stretch of the imagination - but , like you , islam deems them perfectly islamic
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    Thank you for your extended reply, which would deserve a much more detailed answer than I can produce now.
    (Original post by geek999)
    I try to see the world through non-Muslim eyes; one should see it through our eyes. Live your life as a Muslim, for years enough to establish a strong understanding of Islam, and ask yourself how is it that we can live so peacefully and be appreciated by so many non-muslims despite being the Muslims that so many people think are nothing but extremist fools who have no tolerance for basic human rights.
    I will give you a very simple answer, an answer that you will surely disagree with :

    you are a Muslim, but what you practice is a reformist, modernist "Euro-Islam". In your religion, you have gone through a process of contextualisation, de-literalisation, reinterpretation, adaptation to your surrounding society.

    Yes, there are people who, when they read in the Quran that "the thief should have his hand cut off" will read that as a metaphor, meaning that "the thief should be prevented from stealing again". These people, however, are definitely a minority.

    I know it's stupid to make such hatchet-job parallels, but it took Christianity something like the last 400 years to (almost) completely abandon its pretense to dominate society, to accept separation between religion and State, to (almost) abandon Bible literalism

    I sincerely wish for Islam to adopt that same direction, but I have not many illusions: and it also will take centuries

    All the best
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Thank you for your extended reply, which would deserve a much more detailed answer than I can produce now.I will give you a very simple answer, an answer that you will surely disagree with :

    you are a Muslim, but what you practice is a reformist, modernist "Euro-Islam". In your religion, you have gone through a process of contextualisation, de-literalisation, reinterpretation, adaptation to your surrounding society.

    Yes, there are people who, when they read in the Quran that "the thief should have his hand cut off" will read that as a metaphor, meaning that "the thief should be prevented from stealing again". These people, however, are definitely a minority.

    I know it's stupid to make such hatchet-job parallels, but it took Christianity something like 400 years to (almost) completely abandon its pretense to dominate society, to accept separation between religion and State, to (almost) abandon Bible literalism

    I sincerely wish for Islam to adopt that same direction, but I have not many illusions: and it also will take centuries

    All the best
    agree
    Islam is going through the dark ages at present ...
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    (Original post by usi227)
    It's such an interesting debate... It's always good to look at the argument from the other person's point of view and I think people are becoming more and more confused with culture and religion. They're so integrated these days that it can often be tricky to distinguish between them. I'm a Pakistani Muslim and I can say without a doubt that many of the issues the Muslim community comes under fire for such as the "oppression of women" or "condoning of terrorism" are strictly prohibited in The Quran (Holy book). A religion that promotes peace and in fact is translated as peace cannot surely encourage the kind of behaviour we are seeing these days. Culture on the other hand is a different story. I saw a great example of this on BBC Three tonight. The documentary was called "Is Britain racist?". A guy who was interviewed said something along the lines of "We don't want Muslims in Britain, bringing things like female genitalia mutilation with them". Nowhere in The Quran does it mention that Muslims must practice in female genitalia mutilation. It is simply a cultural thing. So, next time your here something to do with Islam, think to yourself, is it cultural or truly Islamic? The Muslims are most definitely at fault... and that's coming from a Muslim.
    Not this again. Islam doesn't mean "peace", it means "submission", and the assertion that just because the word means a certain thing that it cannot promote violent ideals is absurd. Does Norty Korea calling itself a democracy make it one? Even more poignantly, using this reasoning you'd have to accept that ISIS is Isoamic as they claim to be Muslims following the Quran.
 
 
 
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