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For all of those who think Pep will get found out in the PL Watch

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    found out what....?
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    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Chelsea clearly don't support that point. To cite Hughes again, compare the style that Stoke played and the results of 12/13 and 13/14, there's an obvious difference.

    The Barcelona squad had won nothing since 2006 and had a very different squad in 07/08 to 08/09, so it's nonsense to say that anyone could have done it.

    Also Messi performed at his best under Pep, in contrast to Argentina where he'd largely been underachieving. It's also silly for you to talk about how great the squad was but give the manager no credit for assembling it and making it tick.
    You say Chelsea clearly dont support that point and yet Avram Grant came inches from the treble and Roberto Di Matteo did the double winning THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

    in September 2007, following the departure of José Mourinho, Grant was appointed manager of Chelsea. Despite steering the team into the Champions League final, the League Cup final and contesting the Premier League title to the last day, his contract was terminated at the end of the season.
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    Having just read this I'm intruiged!

    Could someone please let me know what level of pundit is

    a) the next level above pub
    b ) the next level below pub
    c )any other specific levels

    Letting me know (your estimation of ) your own level would be a huge bonus as I can then ascribe a weighting to your views in future (albeit based on your own assessment )

    Cheers
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    Baldiola won't win a trophy next season
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    You say Chelsea clearly dont support that point and yet Avram Grant came inches from the treble and Roberto Di Matteo did the double winning THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

    in September 2007, following the departure of José Mourinho, Grant was appointed manager of Chelsea. Despite steering the team into the Champions League final, the League Cup final and contesting the Premier League title to the last day, his contract was terminated at the end of the season.
    Those managers got found out eventually, as opposed to seasons of dominance. They were able to coast on the foundations that had been laid initially, but when it came to applying their own touches failed. In contrast, Pep completely had to change the Barcelona squad. (The one that finished third in the two horse race).

    (Original post by moggis)
    Having just read this I'm intruiged!

    Could someone please let me know what level of pundit is

    a) the next level above pub
    b ) the next level below pub
    c )any other specific levels

    Letting me know (your estimation of ) your own level would be a huge bonus as I can then ascribe a weighting to your views in future (albeit based on your own assessment )

    Cheers
    A pub pundit is an idiot. I thought that was obvious, evidently not lol.

    I wonder if Pep wins the league with games in hand people will say he only won because he had the best squad.
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    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Those managers got found out eventually, as opposed to seasons of dominance. They were able to coast on the foundations that had been laid initially, but when it came to applying their own touches failed. In contrast, Pep completely had to change the Barcelona squad. (The one that finished third in the two horse race).



    A pub pundit is an idiot. I thought that was obvious, evidently not lol.

    I wonder if Pep wins the league with games in hand people will say he only won because he had the best squad.
    Well I did manage to work out that you disdain pub pundits.

    What I'd like to know is how much better,for example,you are to a pub pundit.

    And where does that leave armchair pundits ?


    Also bear in mind that due to the wisdom of crowds effect the views of 10 pub pundits together should produce a conclusion that's more accurate than any single superior pundit.edit ,most superior pundits

    The other thing is,much of what is debated on forums and in pubs can never be tested of course.
    Which causes me to wonder how anyone can ever really know what level their punditry is actually at.
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    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Those managers got found out eventually, as opposed to seasons of dominance. They were able to coast on the foundations that had been laid initially, but when it came to applying their own touches failed. In contrast, Pep completely had to change the Barcelona squad. (The one that finished third in the two horse race).



    A pub pundit is an idiot. I thought that was obvious, evidently not lol.

    I wonder if Pep wins the league with games in hand people will say he only won because he had the best squad.
    Found out eventually ahahaha ... you mean they got sacked after massive success and didnt get the opportunity to manage a superstar team with a gigantic war chest?

    Pep may have completely changed the barca squad and added his "philosophy" to things but he still had a superpower of amazing players including the best years of the literal GOAT Lionel messi.

    Give Fat Sam access to the worlds super talent and a prime best player to ever live and his teams will have seasons of dominance.
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    (Original post by moggis)
    Having just read this I'm intruiged!

    Could someone please let me know what level of pundit is

    a) the next level above pub
    b ) the next level below pub
    c )any other specific levels

    Letting me know (your estimation of ) your own level would be a huge bonus as I can then ascribe a weighting to your views in future (albeit based on your own assessment )

    Cheers
    Pub pundit is usually a fat bald bloke who subscribes to the theory that managers make a big difference to the success of teams. Foreign blokes are popular and also managers with a good head of hair are more often likely to be overrated.

    Funnily enough 98% of the time, the best managers have the best players and best transfer budgets

    Claudio Ranieri won the league... the greatest sporting achievement in history. Yet for his entire career he has been a journeyman like most managers managing SIXTEEN TEAMS winning very little. He also managed to suffer perhaps the worst single result in football history having his Greece side lose to the FAROE ISLANDS.

    For years pub pundits have seen Ranieri as a failure and journeyman... Now they likely think He is a genius and is the sole reason Leicester won the league

    Take Nigel Pearson, the bloke who largely built the Leicester team that went on to win the league. Pub pundits see him as a crap manager
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Pub pundit is usually a fat bald bloke who subscribes to the theory that managers make a big difference to the success of teams. Foreign blokes are popular and also managers with a good head of hair are more often likely to be overrated.

    Funnily enough 98% of the time, the best managers have the best players and best transfer budgets

    Claudio Ranieri won the league... the greatest sporting achievement in history. Yet for his entire career he has been a journeyman like most managers managing SIXTEEN TEAMS winning very little. He also managed to suffer perhaps the worst single result in football history having his Greece side lose to the FAROE ISLANDS.

    For years pub pundits have seen Ranieri as a failure and journeyman... Now they likely think He is a genius and is the sole reason Leicester won the league

    Take Nigel Pearson, the bloke who largely built the Leicester team that went on to win the league. Pub pundits see him as a crap manager

    Your first sentence gave me a lot of food for thought.
    Because I had the impression that most posters on here overestimate the affect of managers.
    Sorry if I got the wrong impression.
    However let me add that I really think what you said is a bit unfair anyway because people like Kevin Pullein are often banging on about managers having little actual affect on teams.

    Now my point is that he writes in periodicals that are read mainly by serious bettors.
    Thus it implies that even a lot of serious bettors apparently overestimate the affect of managers. Thus as I say your comment is ,I think,a bit unfair to pub pundits.

    I might wanna say something about the rest of your post if that's ok
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    (Original post by moggis)
    Your first sentence gave me a lot of food for thought.
    Because I had the impression that most posters on here overestimate the affect of managers.
    Sorry if I got the wrong impression.
    However let me add that I really think what you said is a bit unfair anyway because people like Kevin Pullein are often banging on about managers having little actual affect on teams.

    Now my point is that he writes in periodicals that are read mainly by serious bettors.
    Thus it implies that even a lot of serious bettors apparently overestimate the effect of managers. Thus as I say your comment is ,I think,a bit unfair to pub pundits.

    I might wanna say something about the rest of your post if that's ok
    Oh god no its not just pub pundits... its held by the majority and the media!

    I use the term pub pundits to give the idea i think very little of the theory
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Oh god no its not just pub pundits... its held by the majority and the media!

    I use the term pub pundits to give the idea i think very little of the theory
    Ok fine.
    I just want to make clear however that I myself have no opinion whatsoever on this

    I know that KP has 1000s of stats to back up everthing he says.

    But there are times,I believe, when intuition,for want of a better word,can produce more accurate conclusions.

    But one of the the problems with trying to work who the best pundits are is that those with greater intuition are often mistaken for idiots when they are seen to be wrong about something unusual they've predicted

    Thus they tend to hedge their bets so to speak.
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    (Original post by moggis)
    Ok fine.
    I just want to make clear however that I myself have no opinion whatsoever on this

    I know that KP has 1000s of stats to back up everthing he says.

    But there are times,I believe, when intuition,for want of a better word,can produce more accurate conclusions.

    But one of the the problems with trying to work who the best pundits are is that those with greater intuition are often mistaken for idiots when they are seen to be wrong about something unusual they've predicted

    Thus they tend to hedge their bets so to speak.
    Who is KP?

    Yeah intuition is good.. i sort of understand what you mean with your last point
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Found out eventually ahahaha ... you mean they got sacked after massive success and didnt get the opportunity to manage a superstar team with a gigantic war chest?

    Pep may have completely changed the barca squad and added his "philosophy" to things but he still had a superpower of amazing players including the best years of the literal GOAT Lionel messi.

    Give Fat Sam access to the worlds super talent and a prime best player to ever live and his teams will have seasons of dominance.
    Well Di Matteo got Chelsea knocked out of the CL because of poor tactics the following season and comfortably off the pace in the PL, so to say that RDM didn't get a chance is utter rubbish, just like the rest of your posts have been.

    Strange to see you backtracking on talking about Pep's "philosophy" as though it's nothing, when it required removing club legends and playing a style of football which hadn't been seen before. Obviously anyone would have done that including you.

    Your point about Big Sam is *******s. He couldn't be a title winning manager because his teams defend too compactly and don't attack. Look at West Ham for how he failed with money and his accomplishments were easily surpassed this season, it had like literally nothing to do with Bilic though lol. (Still waiting for your Pulis/Hughes counter).

    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Take Nigel Pearson, the bloke who largely built the Leicester team that went on to win the league. Pub pundits see him as a crap manager
    That was Steve Walsh, but then again you obviously aren't very knowledgeable are you...?
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    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Well Di Matteo got Chelsea knocked out of the CL because of poor tactics the following season and comfortably off the pace in the PL, so to say that RDM didn't get a chance is utter rubbish, just like the rest of your posts have been.
    Alex Ferguson had utd comfortably off the pace at the start... seems to me you would have fired him like Chelsea did RDM. Interesting.

    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Strange to see you backtracking on talking about Pep's "philosophy" as though it's nothing, when it required removing club legends and playing a style of football which hadn't been seen before. Obviously anyone would have done that including you.
    Dont see how i am backtracking. I am not arguing managers ask their players to play in different styles, i am arguing that players and money are whats important. Peps philosophy.. good - Roberto Martinez's Bad

    Give Martinez and his bad failed Philosophy Prime Messi and Barca and the results would have been very similar to peps and you would now tout it as amazing philosophy, amazing manager

    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Your point about Big Sam is *******s. He couldn't be a title winning manager because his teams defend too compactly and don't attack. Look at West Ham for how he failed with money and his accomplishments were easily surpassed this season, it had like literally nothing to do with Bilic though lol. (Still waiting for your Pulis/Hughes counter).



    That was Steve Walsh, but then again you obviously aren't very knowledgeable are you...?
    He wouldn't defend so compactly and play such **** football if he had a team of great players. Simple. You tout Billic as the reason Wham improved this year.. Not the fact that they had Dmitri Payet firing in 35 yard free kicks every other week and lighting up the league...
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Alex Ferguson had utd comfortably off the pace at the start... seems to me you would have fired him like Chelsea did RDM. Interesting.
    Man Utd were top of the league the next gameweek and were top of their CL group, no idea how that's similar to Chelsea's situation when they sacked Di Matteo

    Dont see how i am backtracking. I am not arguing managers ask their players to play in different styles, i am arguing that players and money are whats important. Peps philosophy.. good - Roberto Martinez's Bad

    Give Martinez and his bad failed Philosophy Prime Messi and Barca and the results would have been very similar to peps and you would now tout it as amazing philosophy, amazing manager
    You went from saying it's just players and money that's important and now you're saying managers can change style. I guess you could be saying that a team's style has no impact on results but that's a silly stance to adopt.

    Also, Pep created prime Barca. The squad was completely different under Rijkaard in 07/08 to the treble winners. People like Busquets were still in the reserves before Pep came in.

    Martinez on the other hand is just a chancer as was shown in the past two seasons, so to say he'd easily beat Pep's achievements is laughable.

    He wouldn't defend so compactly and play such **** football if he had a team of great players. Simple. You tout Billic as the reason Wham improved this year.. Not the fact that they had Dmitri Payet firing in 35 yard free kicks every other week and lighting up the league...
    West Ham's points per game when Payet was injured and without his "biweekly" free kicks was still higher than Big Sam's in 14/15.

    Even last season when Sam briefly had to put Downing in the number 10 role as Kevin Nolan was injured, West Ham started picking up points and playing good football, however when Nolan returned Downing was shuffled, so Big Sam went back to drab football and mediocre results. So to say he'd play good football if given the right resources is clearly untrue.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Who is KP?

    Yeah intuition is good.. i sort of understand what you mean with your last point
    Kevin Pullein.

    I cite him a lot because he is a profitable tipster (if you were able to get money on his tips) and because he really is a stats man.
    So being lazy I use his beliefs as a solid benchmark.

    Fwiw,
    I think we can break pundits down into two groups ,those that only ever talk about what's already happened and hardly ever make predictions and those who tend to predict things.

    Now ,personally,I don't really see what real use the first group are . And so for me there isn't that much difference between a brilliant pundit who doesn't make predictions and a 'pub pundit '

    Thsts why I don't listen to experts telling me why team A just beat Team B.

    I also am intrigued as to how I would recognise a better quality pundit over an average pundit if they never make predictions.

    But I will tell you one big thing I look for,fwiw, ,someone who tries to ascribe percentages to what they think might happen.

    I'm also very very put off at any sign of overreaction to recent events. The problem is of course that sometimes it proves to not be an overreaction.

    I also don't rate people who don't seem to understand that a significant oart of what happens in a game is down to pure chance.

    As is what happens over a small number of games.

    Sorry,I didn't intend to make a serious point about pundits.
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    (Original post by Diego Costa)
    Man Utd were top of the league the next gameweek and were top of their CL group, no idea how that's similar to Chelsea's situation when they sacked Di Matteo



    You went from saying it's just players and money that's important and now you're saying managers can change style. I guess you could be saying that a team's style has no impact on results but that's a silly stance to adopt.

    Also, Pep created prime Barca. The squad was completely different under Rijkaard in 07/08 to the treble winners. People like Busquets were still in the reserves before Pep came in.

    Martinez on the other hand is just a chancer as was shown in the past two seasons, so to say he'd easily beat Pep's achievements is laughable.



    West Ham's points per game when Payet was injured and without his "biweekly" free kicks was still higher than Big Sam's in 14/15.

    Even last season when Sam briefly had to put Downing in the number 10 role as Kevin Nolan was injured, West Ham started picking up points and playing good football, however when Nolan returned Downing was shuffled, so Big Sam went back to drab football and mediocre results. So to say he'd play good football if given the right resources is clearly untrue.
    Not gonna engage in a big debate because it will be lengthy and arduous than its worth but I do have a question..

    What trophies will Pep and his superior management and style win in the first season? And how many trophies thereafter are you saying he will win?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Dont see how i am backtracking. I am not arguing managers ask their players to play in different styles, i am arguing that players and money are whats important. Peps philosophy.. good - Roberto Martinez's Bad

    Give Martinez and his bad failed Philosophy Prime Messi and Barca and the results would have been very similar to peps and you would now tout it as amazing philosophy, amazing manager
    Well all of the top clubs disagree with you - otherwise they wouldn't fork out so much money on trying to hire what they perceive as the best managers.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Well all of the top clubs disagree with you - otherwise they wouldn't fork out so much money on trying to hire what they perceive as the best managers.
    My team Everton have just signed Ronald Koeman.. a manager who people would say is a great manager. Won trophies in his career and done a fantastic job at Southampton coming of a fantastic season.

    We have payed Southampton £5m - £5m would buy you Kyle Lafferty or Andy Carrols pony tail in the transfer market
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    My team Everton have just signed Ronald Koeman.. a manager who people would say is a great manager. Won trophies in his career and done a fantastic job at Southampton coming of a fantastic season.

    We have payed Southampton £5m - £5m would buy you Kyle Lafferty or Andy Carrols pony tail in the transfer market
    £5mil is just compensation to pay off his contract with Southampton. With players, you pay a transfer fee to obtain that player's registration (hence it is negotiate over the price for the selling club to transfer his registration). With a manager, he's just quit that contract and therefore the previous employer gets compensation over the value of his remaining contract. So it's like comparing apples and oranges..

    Point remains that if Koeman was as useful as any other manager - why didn't they keep Martinez to keep doing what would be the same job? Why spend £5mil + pay big wages to Koeman? So even your club thinks the manager makes a huge difference on how a squad and club performs.
 
 
 
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