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Gay cake row and freedom of speech Watch

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    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    No, I suggested that it's fallacious to disregard an argument merely because of the subject matter, whether a bus seat or a cake.

    The argument itself should be addressed (and I happen to think the court's decision was wrong - they should have been allowed to refuse to bake the cake), and not disregarded because it involves something trivial, like a cake.
    So you admit it's trivial. Cool.
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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    So you admit it's trivial. Cool.
    Definitely, but so was the bus seat. That doesn't make the argument any less valid or worthy of debate.
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    I just can't believe people think that freedom of speech still exists...
    lmao the same can be said for the Christians denying the damn cake.

    How can they ban a cake for the gay's beliefs in gay marriage?
    Well how can they sue Christians for their beliefs against it?


    :rolleyes:!

    I have no issue with a person of one sex liking the other. Do you want, get freaky I don't care. Gays are stereotyped to be funny, which is cool. Lesbians are stereotyped to be tough which is cool. But I have an issue with the ******** like this :nah:.

    Anyway.
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    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    Definitely, but so was the bus seat. That doesn't make the argument any less valid or worthy of debate.
    OIh my god so you want us to sit here and argue the message behind bus seats and Rosa Parks (which I...won't do. Since it's 110% irrelevant). But let's say I did engage in the argument. So we finish and then does this conversation about a totally different subject suddenly legitimise the original subject? Well? Does it? Is that what you're playing at? Or are you just arbitrarily comparing the apple of racism to the orange of saying pro gay on a cake for an unspecified occasion in a Christian business place? :hmmm:


    Would you like it if you had a certain belief, any belief, and a patron came in and asked you to do something they know is against your beliefs? Now if you have no beliefs ...forget it.
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    Surprisingly I largely agree with OP.

    (Original post by *Stefan*)
    Gosh, how many times do we have to say this.

    One is directly discriminatory and insulting (ie saying homosexuals will burn in hell, or saying Nazi were right or whatever), while the other is not. It seeks neither to degrade nor to insult, but rather qualify the rights of one particular group.

    Hence, in the former case, people are trying to flame, mock or insult others, while in the latter case they are not.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Why on earth should a private business owner be under a duty to produce any political message that the state doesn't consider 'degrading' or 'insulting'?

    No-one should be deciding what is degrading, insulting, or anything else except the person making the product.
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    Anyway at Lady Comstock: I know you'll see this but won't tag because people tend to go to the tag first and ignore quotes even if they came 1st. So I'll just post this:


    bus seats and cakes.

    Lol the bus seat was a symbol of hierarchy in a time of segregation.
    Cakes...is a symbol of nothing :rofl:


    :toofunny:
    Now that's all I'ma say about the bus seat :talkhand:.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Surprisingly I largely agree with OP.



    Why on earth should a private business owner be under a duty to produce any political message that the state doesn't consider 'degrading' or 'insulting'?

    No-one should be deciding what is degrading, insulting, or anything else except the person making the product.
    :congrats: yes lol
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Just like the government can not arrest you for saying something political the government should not be able to force you to endorse/reproduce a set of political beliefs.

    TSR is not obliged to host antisemitic holocaust deniers. TSR denies these users this site's service, not because they are gay/black/white, but because the owner/owners of the site have decided to exercise their right to not to have to pass on the politics of these people and display it on this forum.

    Lets pretend a gay cake maker is approached by a bigoted anti-gay campaigner and who wants a cake that say "gays will go to hell" (it isn't illegal to say that) for some far right Christian/Muslim event. Should the gay baker be obliged to carry out that request? I'd day no and I hope the law does as well.

    Just like with freedom fo speech you have to defend for the views you hate, the same applies here. So you should not be allowed to refuse service to someone purely because they are gay. But that doesn't mean you should have to provide a service to further some kind of political statement, which gay marriage is.

    Basically the right to free speech should also includes the right not to be compelled to say things against our will.

    I don't really know what the legal reality is but that is how I think it should be.
    Oh there it is! Yes. You did it. Right there.

    :adore:
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    OP goddammit you did it. So happy I could dance.

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    This gay cake thing is ridiculous just find somebody else to bake the cake
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Surprisingly I largely agree with OP.



    Why on earth should a private business owner be under a duty to produce any political message that the state doesn't consider 'degrading' or 'insulting'?

    No-one should be deciding what is degrading, insulting, or anything else except the person making the product.
    And here is where we disagree, then.

    The fact that a business is private doesn't mean, in any way, shape or form, that it's free to do as it pleases.
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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    But do you like gay cakes? :holmes: lol

    I bet there's a hashtag gay cake already goings-on. Isn't there. Not even gonna google to find out. This is just how people are.
    #gaycake has definitely been utilised on twitter, just had a quick look. :nyan:
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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    Lol no. Pro gay marriage is very antagonizing. Just say "We're Getting Married, Tom and Richard" or whoever. Pro Gay marriage for a cake at an unsaid wedding for a gay marriage :hmmm: (we can only assume this is what the cake was for, but it's still ridiculous because I'm sure the two people getting married know they're pro gay already. It looks like something someone would say like a skinhead walking by a group of Muslims saying, "White power!"

    They never said, "**** Muslims" they just taunted with white power! Can you arrest or sue them for that? I'm sure you can start some **** over it. But the "message" as you say is there. So the offense is there. And if the Muslims want to ban the skinheads from coming to the shop lol they can and will. And no problem.

    So if the Christian establishment wants to ban the gays from coming in taunting their Gay Power the same a skinhead would indirectly war mong with "pro gay!" on a cake...:hmmm: makes sense to me, think about it.

    This was not discriminatory. Of course on TSR people will pass by and anonymously rep considering the demographic, I've been on here long enough to know what's popular thinking and what isn't. But in the real world this is ridiculous. It's a passive aggressive almost contrived way ( contrived because of how silly it is and how it got ruled and how it's "news" etc) to set an example of gay rights. It's turning into Gay nazism. People can't even defend their beliefs anymore without trouble. It's a double standard. It's hypo-****ing-critical. To say it's ok to sue someone for their beliefs...for turning away business for their beliefs. It is about the belief per se lol. It's literally about the belief. There is no respect for religion so their principles were disregarded completely. How is that cool? That's not ok.
    Even if it said that, they'd still refuse to do it. The variations between the messages are of inconsequential importance.

    What? So, a business saying "blacks not allowed in" should be free to do so because it wishes? Hell no. Just as businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of colour or sexual orientation or whatnot, in the same way they should not be allowed to discriminate whom they're serving.

    Sorry, but not. If a religious person constantly degrades homosexuals, I'm not going to say "oh, OK. It's their beliefs and we should respect thsm". That makes zero sense. They are free to believe whatever they want, but if they own a business or work in a business, their personal beliefs should not cloud their judgments. It's as if you're saying that a Muslim working in Tesco should be able to refuse giving pork to costumers. Really?

    Finally, it's not about the cake itself, of course. It's about the principle. Don't forget that the ruling will be binding if it goes higher up the chain. And a clarification is obviously needed.
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    I literally don't care.


    I'm fully aware the case was BS, the bakery were not discriminating, they did not refuse to serve gay people, they refused to sell a cake with a political message on it


    The gay couple have done society an amazing service, it's not just about upholding equality, it's about creating an environment where intolerance is unable to thrive.
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    (Original post by *Stefan*)
    Even if it said that, they'd still refuse to do it. The variations between the messages are of inconsequential importance.

    What? So, a business saying "blacks not allowed in" should be free to do so because it wishes? Hell no. Just as businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of colour or sexual orientation or whatnot, in the same way they should not be allowed to discriminate whom they're serving.

    Sorry, but not. If a religious person constantly degrades homosexuals, I'm not going to say "oh, OK. It's their beliefs and we should respect thsm". That makes zero sense. They are free to believe whatever they want, but if they own a business or work in a business, their personal beliefs should not cloud their judgments. It's as if you're saying that a Muslim working in Tesco should be able to refuse giving pork to costumers. Really?

    Finally, it's not about the cake itself, of course. It's about the principle. Don't forget that the ruling will be binding if it goes higher up the chain. And a clarification is obviously needed.
    Ok I can't keep going in circles and that whole race spin is just not going to work with me, revert to my response to Lady Comstock. I won't even go there so I tell you to look at my response to her before I get started on that apples and oranges.

    Anyway, well yea this getting circular because as I said, you can't sue someone for their beliefs. You keep saying it's not about their beliefs. Like I said, it is. Because the shop denied their request since it goes against,..their beliefs. Do not do not do not trivialize religion. If you do not believe in it let me know so I will not stay confused with your defense, but it still stands that the gays are suing the Christians for their beliefs against gay marriage...while the gays are suing because their beliefs for gay marriage was according to them challenged. That is so hypocritical it's laughable. Also the bakery is not obligated to agree with anything! How dare they sue for that? :curious:
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    (Original post by Rich Rollington)
    I literally don't care.


    I'm fully aware the case was BS, the bakery were not discriminating, they did not refuse to serve gay people, they refused to sell a cake with a political message on it


    The gay couple have done society an amazing service, it's not just about upholding equality, it's about creating an environment where intolerance is unable to thrive.
    First of all yes the bakery has every right to refuse to put that on the cake. They didn't turn them away for holding hands. They turned them away for being ridiculous. That's like if skinheads came in and asked for White Power! on the cake, for a...whatever party. Those gay patrons were taking the right royal piss that day and silly Ireland fell into it.

    Secondly, no. They didn't do society an "amazing" anything. Sure you'll get reps, but make no mistake if there was neg rep you'd get that too. Also realize that suing someone for their beliefs whether it is for or against gay or for or against whatever, is not creating an environment for tolerance :lolwut: how can you say that? :lolwut:

    It's literally the opposite of tolerance to sue. Tolerance is, well they disagree honey. Let's go to another bakery.

    Not: "oh really? Well..well...:unsure:...ok :cry: I'm going to go and sue you, for not liking us!!! :unimpressed: Ya big meanies!"

    :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    Ok I can't keep going in circles and that whole race spin is just not going to work with me, revert to my response to Lady Comstock. I won't even go there so I tell you to look at my response to her before I get started on that apples and oranges.

    Anyway, well yea this getting circular because as I said, you can't sue someone for their beliefs. You keep saying it's not about their beliefs. Like I said, it is. Because the shop denied their request since it goes against,..their beliefs. Do not do not do not trivialize religion. If you do not believe in it let me know so I will not stay confused with your defense, but it still stands that the gays are suing the Christians for their beliefs against gay marriage...while the gays are suing because their beliefs for gay marriage was according to them challenged. That is so hypocritical it's laughable. Also the bakery is not obligated to agree with anything! How dare they sue for that? :curious:
    You're not answering though? If someone believed that black people were inferior and wouldn't serve to them, it would be fine for you? This is an identical proposition on different issues. If your answer is, however, different, it would be quite hypocritical, might I say.

    You're making them seem like the victims. Lol. So, you think religious people generally imposing their beliefs on others is fine? Cause I'm sure as hell not.

    But on topic, they didn't sue for that reason. They sued for sexual discrimination (ie that they were treated differently than a heterosexual couple would). Of course the fact that the owners are Christians here is relevant, but it's not due to the religion per se. It would apply even if it were a Muslim, a Buddhist or something unrelated to a religion altogether.

    They are not obliged to agree with everything, but they may not discriminate unless the appeal is successful. Don't see any issue here...

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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    First of all yes the bakery has every right to refuse to put that on the cake. They didn't turn them away for holding hands. They turned them away for being ridiculous. That's like if skinheads came in and asked for White Power! on the cake, for a...whatever party. Those gay patrons were taking the right royal piss that day and silly Ireland fell into it.

    Secondly, no. They didn't do society an "amazing" anything. Sure you'll get reps, but make no mistake if there was neg rep you'd get that too. Also realize that suing someone for their beliefs whether it is for or against gay or for or against whatever, is not creating an environment for tolerance :lolwut: how can you say that? :lolwut:

    It's literally the opposite of tolerance to sue. Tolerance is, well they disagree honey. Let's go to another bakery.

    Not: "oh really? Well..well...:unsure:...ok :cry: I'm going to go and sue you, for not liking us!!! :unimpressed: Ya big meanies!"

    :rolleyes:

    Accepting gay people and ethnic minorities is right, I don't think people should tolerate other people's intolerance actually.
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    (Original post by Rich Rollington)
    Accepting gay people and ethnic minorities is right, I don't think people should tolerate other people's intolerance actually.
    Did you read anything I said?

    They weren't turned away for holding hands. Denying gays for being gay is as soon as they walked in and asked for a cake for a baby shower (not about gays, just a regular cake while being gay) is discriminatory. Because now you're going against two harmless individuals.

    But refusing to put "pro gay" on a cake is the same as refusing to put "burn Muslims" on a cake. Like since when is "Pro Gay Marriage" even cake language? lol Like normally it's, "Congrats!" or "Just Married!" or...something. Not political messages what the hell. If you want "Pro Gay" on the cake get your own damn icing squeeze thing and write it yourself. Get some chocolate syrup from ASDA or your local corner shop and squirt it on yourself. Not go sue, what the ****.

    And who said anything about ethnic minorities? Since when do ethnic minorities rights relate to religious beliefs? Stay on topic and do not add irrelevant crap into sensationalize a flimsy defense.
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    (Original post by mango peeler)
    Did you read anything I said?

    They weren't turned away for holding hands. Denying gays for being gay is as soon as they walked in and asked for a cake for a baby shower (not about gays, just a regular cake while being gay) is discriminatory. Because now you're going against two harmless individuals.

    But refusing to put "pro gay" on a cake is the same as refusing to put "burn Muslims" on a cake. Like since when is "Pro Gay Marriage" even cake language? lol Like normally it's, "Congrats!" or "Just Married!" or...something. Not political messages what the hell. If you want "Pro Gay" on the cake get your own damn icing squeeze thing and write it yourself. Get some chocolate syrup from ASDA or your local corner shop and squirt it on yourself. Not go sue, what the ****.
    Did you read anything I said?


    I am aware of all this, I want an environment where homophobes are run into the dirt, even if they're not being actively homophobic.


    Honestly, I would be happy if Churches would double up as gay strip clubs.
 
 
 
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