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Alcohol should be banned in the UK Watch

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    (Original post by walking in sand)
    if people want to die as a result of substance misuse then thats just natural selection at work.
    That doesn't mean it's okay. We have a society and an NHS and stuff because we don't want natural selection to be the arbiter of who lives and dies. Many people who would have been killed off by natural selection can do great things with their lives.
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    (Original post by knapdarloch)
    That's an interesting chart, but it may tell the whole story. The ratio of an effective dose to a lethal dose isn't the only thing to consider when determining how dangerous drugs are. Some of these drugs may have harmful (but not immediately lethal) effects at their effective dose; this damage can accumulate over time. It's also important to look at what effect the drugs have on peoples' minds, both in terms of addiction and fixation and the mindset that the drug puts a person in when they've taken it. I'm sure everyone's heard horror stories about what people occasionally do when under the influence of LSD.
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    Because the government makes money off alcohol here, money over health over here, same reason they wont ban cigarettes
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    (Original post by ShannyMorrison)
    My guess is that because drink isn't necessarily as harmful as certain drugs.

    I don't know about you but I'd much rather greet someone who's drunk than someone who's hallucinating.

    Furthermore, drink may well damage you physically and, to an extent, mentally but that's nothing compared to the damage some drugs can do to you.

    I've yet to hear of anyone becoming schizophrenic, bi polar or hallucinate because of a vodka and coke. I know two schizophrenics and both of them ended up in that state because of drugs.

    Drugs are more addictive too. Many say that you can get addicted to heroine from your first time. I've never met someone who's become an alcoholic from their first shot.

    It's also easier to die of a drug related overdose than drink related overdose. I'm not saying drink related overdosed don't happen but they aren't half as common as drug related ones. I'm sure I don't have to explain that one any further.
    Its well know among the scientific community that Alcohol is among the most dangerous of all drugs and would be class A if discovered today. Two recent analyses of 20 drugs by comittees of world renowned scientists (one group UK based and one group european) found alcohol to be the most dangerous drug of all when weighing in the harms to society and the user. Both also found alcohol to be in the top 5 for harm to the user which you seem to be suggesting is low, alcohol was seen as vastly more damaging to the user than Ecstacy, magic mushrooms, LSD and Cannabis.

    In regards to deaths from drugs being very high you should check out the Phd done by alasdair forsyth in Glasgow (google him) which shows that deaths from illegal drugs are disproportionately reported in the media compared to deaths from alcohol, prescription drugs. A really brilliant and enlightening piece of work.

    All of this is an example of how the public perception of drugs has been so badly distorted by the media, government and drinks industry and it really has to stop now.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Most drugs that get banned are used by few people, you nip it in the bud before it becomes bigger.
    Ah, so a bit like fox hunting?

    Well, fox hunting is far more dangerous than most drug use and they do tend to be rather unpleasant people I guess. :unsure:
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    That's an interesting chart, but it may tell the whole story. The ratio of an effective dose to a lethal dose isn't the only thing to consider when determining how dangerous drugs are. Some of these drugs may have harmful (but not immediately lethal) effects at their effective dose; this damage can accumulate over time. It's also important to look at what effect the drugs have on peoples' minds, both in terms of addiction and fixation and the mindset that the drug puts a person in when they've taken it. I'm sure everyone's heard horror stories about what people occasionally do when under the influence of LSD.
    These horror stories are exactly that.... 'stories' the are very rarely backed by evidence and I think it is unreasonable to argue that LSD influences someone strongly enough to do the usual horror story stuff e.g look into the sun, jump out of window etc
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    (Original post by Ishea16)
    i went to some 'alcohol and society' lecture and the speaker was showing how over the years all type of illnesses have decreased and take less lives now including Heart disease and cancer
    all except liver disease, which has been increasing over the years matching the increase in alcohol consumption in the uk
    This is the graph you are referencing. The effect is solely a result of our governments cowardice to tackling alcohol
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    (Original post by Neurosci)
    This is the graph you are referencing. The effect is solely a result of our governments cowardice to tackling alcohol
    this^^
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    That's an interesting chart, but it may tell the whole story. The ratio of an effective dose to a lethal dose isn't the only thing to consider when determining how dangerous drugs are. Some of these drugs may have harmful (but not immediately lethal) effects at their effective dose; this damage can accumulate over time.
    The chart was only posted in reply to the overdose claim.

    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    It's also important to look at what effect the drugs have on peoples' minds, both in terms of addiction and fixation and the mindset that the drug puts a person in when they've taken it. I'm sure everyone's heard horror stories about what people occasionally do when under the influence of LSD.
    Of course, but then alcohol is pretty bad in that respect too and we've all heard horror stories about what people occasionally do when under the influence of alcohol.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    The Government should also ban fast-food places, nationalize biscuit/sweets/chocolate companies and have a total ban on sugar to reduce the obesity epidemic that is ravaging the UK.

    But the Government is putty in the hands of the "food and drinks lobby".


    If you want to get anything decriminalized and legalized, all you have to do is to have a shitload of money and send out people to lobby ministers on your behalf.

    The Government no longer works in the interests of people, just big corporations.
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The Conservatives have made illegal a huge amount of drugs, some potentially safe and useful, in a single blanket ban. This is supposedly due to the cost to society of these drugs.

    Why are we banning drugs that kill less than a hundred people a year between them for their cost to society? Surely we should be banning alcohol, which caused over 6000 deaths in 2012 and costs the NHS £3.5 BILLION a year.

    I really can't fathom how the cost to society can be used to justify banning drugs when it's a normal occurrence for people to binge drink every week.
    unfortunately as it has been available for a number of centuries none of these will ever get banned too many people getting rich off of it i'd just cause it to go black market leading to a repeat of the US prohibition era
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    (Original post by ShannyMorrison)
    1. The drunken brawls aren't simply down to drink, they're down to those who drink and are stupid. It's the combination that's lethal. I've lost a few friends over my short life span, many of the attacks were actually by high folk not drunk folk. People who are pretty drunk lack the co-ordination to successfully murder someone 90% of the time. Violent people will be violent no matter what.

    2. Okay, for you to ask why schizophrenia is worse than liver disease... I'm guessing you've never been personally affected by the illness and don't know what it actually is. I'm sorry but schizophrenia is one of the most horrible things on the face of the planet.

    3. Heroine isn't the only exception though. LSD? Cocaine? As for cannabis not being addictive I know that's *******s. There was a UK Cannabis related death not so long ago in the press, feel free to look it up. As for addictiveness, my weed smoking friends themselves have admitted it's addictive but nearly everything is. Junk food, shopping, the internet, coffee, etc so before you think I'm picking holes for the sake of it I'm really not. I just think it's excessively addictive and dangerously so.

    4. Safe source of drugs? No such thing.That in itself is a contradiction. Do you want a safe source of bleach? A safe source of tobacco? A safe internet virus?
    1. Are you suggesting these brawls would occur if people weren't drunk? Because I think we both know that's simply not true. Alcohol can make people aggressive and, far more importantly, it lowers inhibitions, so people that wouldn't hurt a fly sober end up making violent drunken decisions. Very, very few street drugs lower inhibitions like this, and the ones that do will make you calm and less aggressive.

    And to suggest that people can't cause serious damage to each other when drunk is ludicrous.

    2. I know people with serious schizophrenia and it's a horrible disease. But I'm sure someone with liver disease would argue that it's worse. And unlike schizophrenia, liver disease will kill you, unless you get a liver transplant which could have gone to someone else. They're both chronic diseases and I think you're wrong to say one is worse than the other.

    3. You misunderstand. I'm talking about addiction in the medical sense. Cannabis is addictive in the same way that TV shows and World of Warcraft are addictive. As is literally anything else. But it's not addictive in a medical sense, nor is LSD, or mushrooms, or a lot of the drugs banned by this new legislation. They don't cause physical dependency, they don't cause withdrawals. A lot of popular street drugs are less addictive than alcohol. These are facts.

    As for a cannabis related death, this doesn't mean it was caused by cannabis. You literally cannot physically take enough cannabis to overdose. It's impossible. LSD is also extremely hard to OD on. Someone linked a chart earlier in the thread showing that most drugs are harder to OD on than alcohol. 'Cannabis related death' just means someone was using cannabis.

    4. Safe source, not safe drugs. When you buy tobacco it's safe, it hasn't been mixed with arsenic and rat poison (oh, wait). But you know what you're buying, it's highly regulated, it hadn't been tampered with by dodgy dealers. A lot of illegal drug deaths aren't due to the drugs, they're due to substances mixed in with the drugs. Legalising them, and providing a safe and regulated source, would eliminate this entire problem.
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    (Original post by SophieSmall)
    Can't attatch links on my phone.

    But seriously just Google it, it literally takes 5 seconds.
    The evidence is weak, the evidence for the other side of the coin is far stronger and more convincing.

    Smokers pay more in tax, not alcoholics.
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    I think I'll responsibly enjoy a glass of bitter, and go to be bed safe in the knowledge that alcohol will never be banned
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    (Original post by Legit)
    The evidence is weak, the evidence for the other side of the coin is far stronger and more convincing.

    Smokers pay more in tax, not alcoholics.
    You're talking out of your arse. If you'd bother to actually read this you'll see that in the tax year 2014-2015 alcohol tax revenue actual beat tobacco.

    http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn09.pdf

    If you don't agree with alcohol consumption or think it should be banned fine. But at least don't make **** up to suit your agenda.
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    (Original post by Sofubar)
    'The main psychological triggers of schizophrenia are stressful life events, such as a bereavement, losing your job or home, a divorce or the end of a relationship, or physical, sexual, emotional or racial abuse. These kinds of experiences, though stressful, do not cause schizophrenia, but can trigger its development in someone already vulnerable to it.Drugs do not directly cause schizophrenia, but studies have shown drug misuse increases the risk of developing schizophrenia or a similar illness.Certain drugs, particularly cannabis, cocaine, LSD or amphetamines, may trigger symptoms of schizophrenia in people who are susceptible. Using amphetamines or cocaine can lead to psychosis and can cause a relapse in people recovering from an earlier episode.'

    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizop...es/Causes.aspx
    You're taking what I said out of context. I said I knew two schizophrenics who had ended up that way through drugs, not that all schizophrenics end up that way through drugs. Both used heavy amounts of cannabis and cocaine. Neither had anything traumatic happen to them (one's a relative I grew up along side, the other a best friend I know inside and out). They did drugs together and both suffered the same result.

    I'm not such an ass that I won't admit that everything above is correct though, and that would apply to the majority, but they went around using drugs thinking they were invincible because they'd never encountered trauma - those two fools messed their life up. They genuinely thought that because they hadn't had anything like depression or high levels of stress before that they'd be alright, completely ignoring the fact that humans are pretty damn fragile.

    As I said earlier, it's stupidity and abuse combined that's dangerous.
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    (Original post by ShannyMorrison)
    You're taking what I said out of context. I said I knew two schizophrenics who had ended up that way through drugs, not that all schizophrenics end up that way through drugs. Both used heavy amounts of cannabis and cocaine. Neither had anything traumatic happen to them (one's a relative I grew up along side, the other a best friend I know inside and out). They did drugs together and both suffered the same result.

    I'm not such an ass that I won't admit that everything above is correct though, and that would apply to the majority, but they went around using drugs thinking they were invincible because they'd never encountered trauma - those two fools messed their life up. They genuinely thought that because they hadn't had anything like depression or high levels of stress before that they'd be alright, completely ignoring the fact that humans are pretty damn fragile.

    As I said earlier, it's stupidity and abuse combined that's dangerous.
    You said 'because of drugs', which was asserting cause and effect.

    I wasn't launching a personal attack on you. I just quoted the NHS website's position, which has far more authority on this than either of us. I suggest you read the entire page I linked to.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    1. Are you suggesting these brawls would occur if people weren't drunk? Because I think we both know that's simply not true. Alcohol can make people aggressive and, far more importantly, it lowers inhibitions, so people that wouldn't hurt a fly sober end up making violent drunken decisions. Very, very few street drugs lower inhibitions like this, and the ones that do will make you calm and less aggressive.

    And to suggest that people can't cause serious damage to each other when drunk is ludicrous.

    2. I know people with serious schizophrenia and it's a horrible disease. But I'm sure someone with liver disease would argue that it's worse. And unlike schizophrenia, liver disease will kill you, unless you get a liver transplant which could have gone to someone else. They're both chronic diseases and I think you're wrong to say one is worse than the other.

    3. You misunderstand. I'm talking about addiction in the medical sense. Cannabis is addictive in the same way that TV shows and World of Warcraft are addictive. As is literally anything else. But it's not addictive in a medical sense, nor is LSD, or mushrooms, or a lot of the drugs banned by this new legislation. They don't cause physical dependency, they don't cause withdrawals. A lot of popular street drugs are less addictive than alcohol. These are facts.

    As for a cannabis related death, this doesn't mean it was caused by cannabis. You literally cannot physically take enough cannabis to overdose. It's impossible. LSD is also extremely hard to OD on. Someone linked a chart earlier in the thread showing that most drugs are harder to OD on than alcohol. 'Cannabis related death' just means someone was using cannabis.

    4. Safe source, not safe drugs. When you buy tobacco it's safe, it hasn't been mixed with arsenic and rat poison (oh, wait). But you know what you're buying, it's highly regulated, it hadn't been tampered with by dodgy dealers. A lot of illegal drug deaths aren't due to the drugs, they're due to substances mixed in with the drugs. Legalising them, and providing a safe and regulated source, would eliminate this entire problem.
    1. I am suggesting brawls would occur if people weren't drunk because they do on a regular basis? I live in Scotland, it's normal amongst the beefheads. Religion, football, politics cause brawls too without intoxication. Also, when did I once say that drunk people can't cause damage to one another? I said that anything they would do would be sloppy.

    2. Are you saying schizophrenia doesn't kill people? That's absurd! The amount of pills you have to take with the illness can cause overdoses, the suicide rates are higher, they can (if untreated usually) kill other people?

    3. I'm not even going to bother argue my point, it'll only go through one ear and out the other as it always does with pro-weed folk.

    4. Read above^ I'm not wasting my breath on you. All drugs are bad in excess, every single damned one, whether it's mixed or not. Are you trying to tell me that an energy drink can kill me but you can't directly die from cannabis? Bull.

    5. Seriously, don't bother replying. I won't be swayed.
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    I wouldn't ban alcohol, just triple the tax levied on it.
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    (Original post by ShannyMorrison)
    I've yet to hear of anyone becoming schizophrenic, bi polar or hallucinate because of a vodka and coke. I know two schizophrenics and both of them ended up in that state because of drugs.
    Evidence please. And how do you know it's not a chicken and egg situation - people with underlying mental health problems turning to drugs?

    It's also easier to die of a drug related overdose than drink related overdose. I'm not saying drink related overdosed don't happen but they aren't half as common as drug related ones. I'm sure I don't have to explain that one any further.
    How about drink related accidents like drink driving, fights and other trouble people get into when drunk? And all the deaths from alcoholism related illnesses. If you count all of that I bet it would be a knockout blow in terms of deaths vs drugs.
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    (Original post by Wilfred Little)
    Evidence please. And how do you know it's not a chicken and egg situation - people with underlying mental health problems turning to drugs?



    How about drink related accidents like drink driving, fights and other trouble people get into when drunk? And all the deaths from alcoholism related illnesses. If you count all of that I bet it would be a knockout blow in terms of deaths vs drugs.
    Drugs can cause psychotic episodes...its well documented...not a chicken and egg situation...if it happens around drug use its pretty obvious.

    alcohol cant be made illegal at this stage. idiots say it has less problems. drugs have an overall negative effect so why legalise a bad thing.
 
 
 
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