Hard Determinism Vs Free Will

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username1350010
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RobML
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
I'm a Hard Determinist, and I am open to debate. I ask anyone to sway me into believing that free will exists.


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Ditto.
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Diabolus
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
I'm a Hard Determinist, and I am open to debate. I ask anyone to sway me into believing that free will exists.


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even if everything is inevitable, everything is also meaningless.

So who cares?
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*Deidre*
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I think that life is partly deterministic and partly free will. Relationships for example, would be all about free will. I don't believe in soul mates and that there is one true person that is pre determined for us all...so, that would show that free will plays a major role in our lives, over everything being pre-determined. Just my opinion, anyway.
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Farm_Ecology
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
I'm a Hard Determinist, and I am open to debate. I ask anyone to sway me into believing that free will exists.


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My concern really boils down to a definition of free will.

I've found that any definitions are either impossible or not really satisfying.
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Labradoodles
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
What you choose to believe and what is actually the case does not necessarily have any correlation. In the situation to which you refer, you would always end up getting together with the person you end up getting together with. It doesn't mean they're your soul mate, but what it does mean is that all the factors that drove you to get together with a person could not have resulted in anything else, as given the exact same situation with all the same factors, you wouldn't have made any other choice, therefore I conclude that the situation you refer to, as with any situation, is completely determined by causes and effects and you really don't have any free will in the matter.


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Agreed. There is often the illusion of free will, but every decision you make is effected by the decisions first made by others around you. The choices available to you only exist because of pre-determined events; you can only choose that job placement because someone more qualified than you didn't opt for it. You can only choose to buy the last cookie because the man in the que in front of you decided against it. You can only choose to get together with that person because your experiences in your life, the lives of those around you in control of your life and vise versa with your partner happened in just the right sequence that you met in the right place, at the right time, with the right mind set.

It kinda puts me in mind of the butterfly effect because when you think at it the tiniest things being different could change everything; something as small as being a minute later into a room could prevent you from meeting someone who might completely change the direction of your life. Sounds pretty determined, right?
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*Deidre*
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
What you choose to believe and what is actually the case does not necessarily have any correlation. In the situation to which you refer, you would always end up getting together with the person you end up getting together with. It doesn't mean they're your soul mate, but what it does mean is that all the factors that drove you to get together with a person could not have resulted in anything else, as given the exact same situation with all the same factors, you wouldn't have made any other choice, therefore I conclude that the situation you refer to, as with any situation, is completely determined by causes and effects and you really don't have any free will in the matter.


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Reading it as you put it, that is amazing. But your free will is still part of the process, a catalyst of sorts. To say otherwise is to say we have no responsibility for how our lives turn out. That's can't be. lol
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Farm_Ecology
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(Original post by *Deidre*)
Reading it as you put it, that is amazing. But your free will is still part of the process, a catalyst of sorts. To say otherwise is to say we have no responsibility for how our lives turn out. That's can't be. lol
Why not? The original point still sands: just because you dont want it to be the case, doesn't mean it isnt. You're decision to travel down a particular path, or say a particular thing, involves no more free will than a river's 'decision' to flow downhill.
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*Deidre*
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(Original post by Farm_Ecology)
Why not? The original point still sands: just because you dont want it to be the case, doesn't mean it isnt. You're decision to travel down a particular path, or say a particular thing, involves no more free will than a river's 'decision' to flow downhill.
I believe that our lives are often the sum total of our choices, not random acts of external forces. In some cases, yes random external acts occur that we have no control over but determinism suggests that we are mere drones with no ability to choose a different path. Just because you think determinism is always the case, doesn't make it so either. We are both discussing opinions, here.
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(Original post by *Deidre*)
I believe that our lives are often the sum total of our choices, not random acts of external forces. In some cases, yes random external acts occur that we have no control over but determinism suggests that we are mere drones with no ability to choose a different path. Just because you think determinism is always the case, doesn't make it so either. We are both discussing opinions, here.
My point is that your choices, the apparent act of decision made by your brain, happens according to a perfectly predicable pattern based on the events that led to that decision. In other words, it is not a decision at all. Choice is only apparent when looking at a situation with hindsight and foresight, but mean nothing in the moment.

Choices are made by the actions (and inactions) of the neurons that make up your brain, and these neurons act based on the external factors that affect them. The net is complex, but works in a relatively simplistic way, where neurons influence neurons which influence neurons, which eventually result in some kind of an action.

Essentially, the point is that you don't actually make choices, you simply react in a predictable and deterministic way.
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YesAllMen
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(Original post by Farm_Ecology)
My point is that your choices, the apparent act of decision made by your brain, happens according to a perfectly predicable pattern based on the events that led to that decision. In other words, it is not a decision at all. Choice is only apparent when looking at a situation with hindsight and foresight, but mean nothing in the moment.

Choices are made by the actions (and inactions) of the neurons that make up your brain, and these neurons act based on the external factors that affect them. The net is complex, but works in a relatively simplistic way, where neurons influence neurons which influence neurons, which eventually result in some kind of an action.

Essentially, the point is that you don't actually make choices, you simply react in a predictable and deterministic way.
None of this contradicts the idea of free will, in fact, only 12% of philosophers reject FW (60% follow the notion of compatibilism)

See: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
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*Deidre*
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(Original post by Farm_Ecology)
My point is that your choices, the apparent act of decision made by your brain, happens according to a perfectly predicable pattern based on the events that led to that decision. In other words, it is not a decision at all. Choice is only apparent when looking at a situation with hindsight and foresight, but mean nothing in the moment.

Choices are made by the actions (and inactions) of the neurons that make up your brain, and these neurons act based on the external factors that affect them. The net is complex, but works in a relatively simplistic way, where neurons influence neurons which influence neurons, which eventually result in some kind of an action.

Essentially, the point is that you don't actually make choices, you simply react in a predictable and deterministic way.
I'm scared that you might be right. ^_^
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Implication
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
It completely contradicts free will. Determinism suggests that you have no other option other than the one you came to, whereas free will suggests you have choice to do what you want.


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But these are compatible, hence the name compatibilism!
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Implication
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
Please expand your view


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I'm still free to do what I want; it's just that what I want is also determined by prior causes!

I think basically compatibilism can be summarised as the redefinition of freedom such that determinism doesn't preclude free will but I'm not a fan of compatibilism, so that may not be a fair summary!
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Implication
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
But if everything is determined then you can't be free to do what you want. Period. 😉👌


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Define 'free'. I still do what I want; it's just that I was determined to do so. Where the freedom comes in is the question.
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thefatone
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somebody please define what free will and determinism are?
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username2130115
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
I'm a Hard Determinist, and I am open to debate. I ask anyone to sway me into believing that free will exists.


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i wrote about this topic in AS Philosophy. there's a debate about quantum mechanics and free will; can activity at sub-atomic level only be explained in terms of probability? if so then it's similar to the 'free will' but most physicists disagree with this analogy because we cannot make judgement about quantum mechanics if we don't know enough about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determ...ic_perspective
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ThatOldGuy
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
I'm a Hard Determinist, and I am open to debate. I ask anyone to sway me into believing that free will exists.


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I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of this - If you're a Hard Determinist, you were predetermined to make this thread because you were predetermined to be a Hard Predeterminist while those who disagree have been predetermined to believe in Free Agency.

If everything is predetermined, then time is simply a ticking clock winding down. Why have a discussion if there is no choice? Clearly, there's no virtue in wanting a discussion. You've simply been ordained to.
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ThatOldGuy
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
Ah but if I say the correct things then it could cause the effect of making the other people change their views. 😉


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That wouldn't have any effect other than what was predetermined. And it wouldn't be a case of 'If' if predetermination is the case. It simply would have happened - Why bother? It either would be predetermined or wouldn't.
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thefatone
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(Original post by Reaver Daniels)
free
friː/
adjective
1.
able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another.


You are therefore not free because you cannot do as you wish. That is simply an illusion. Your choices are determined, you only think they're free.


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but i can do as i wish for example someone may tell me to go out with them and have a beer or 2, however i might say no i don't want to go out so then i stay at home. this action is not done under the control of another but from my own thinking and judgement.
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