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B930 - Church of England Disestablishment Bill 2016 Watch

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    (Original post by TheHelpfulMan)
    Well the greens attacking english heritage what a surprise. No Christianity in a christisn country, the green s wikk get there aim of islamic British state
    That's not what the bill does:facepalm:

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    FWIW I strongly oppose an elected House of Lords on the grounds that it is close to impossible to do without missing the point of a bicameral system.
    It's possible if all peers are god's direct representatives. It'd be like humans enacting a law then god approves it.

    (Original post by TheHelpfulMan)
    Well the greens attacking english heritage what a surprise. No Christianity in a christisn country, the green s wikk get there aim of islamic British state
    The United States does not have an established church. Is the United States an islamic state?
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    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    It's possible if all peers are god's direct representatives. It'd be like humans enacting a law then god approves it.



    The United States does not have an established church. Is the United States an islamic state?
    Does the US have an even remotely comparable social history and situation to the UK? Stop making false equivalences.
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    (Original post by Kieselguhr)
    Does the US have an even remotely comparable social history and situation to the UK? Stop making false equivalences.
    Yes. The established church was disestablished with the independence, similar to all other former colonies where Christianity remains alive and well.

    But if you refuse to use US as an example because you can't think of an argument, how about Wales? Or are you going to say Wales is also drastically different to England?

    The reality you and other opponents seem so keen to be denying is that the disestablishment of a state church doesn't kill off the religion - not even in Russia where the Orthodox Church was actually banned, or in Ireland, where people remain catholic even with the plantation. You can, of course, refuse to acknowledge foreign examples, but you can't possibly say Christianity can survive in Wales without an established church but will not survive in England.
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    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    Yes. The established church was disestablished with the independence, similar to all other former colonies where Christianity remains alive and well.

    But if you refuse to use US as an example because you can't think of an argument, how about Wales? Or are you going to say Wales is also drastically different to England?
    I'm saying the social situation with the prevalence of Islam in the UK is vastly different to that in the US. With a much larger Muslim population, it's more reasonable to assume they'd push for governance under their own religious laws here than it is in America.

    America has always been secular whereas England has always had one accepted religion for most of her history - from Paganism to Christianity.

    Please, drop the patronising tone and try to actually understand my argument before leaping off on a tangent.
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    (Original post by Kieselguhr)
    I'm saying the social situation with the prevalence of Islam in the UK is vastly different to that in the US. With a much larger Muslim population, it's more reasonable to assume they'd push for governance under their own religious laws here than it is in America.

    America has always been secular whereas England has always had one accepted religion for most of her history - from Paganism to Christianity.

    Please, drop the patronising tone and try to actually understand my argument before leaping off on a tangent.
    I couldn't possibly understand your 'argument' before you presented one - thanks for presenting one now. However, you have yet to explain your assertion that it's different in the US. There may be fewer Muslims in the US, but they certainly are not less outspoken.

    And I'm not sure if you understand how the British legal system works. Having an Anglican established church does not stop Muslim voters and politicians from enacting Islamic laws. It doesn't even stop them from establishing their church. But if you disagree I'm happy to listen - do realize that most lords spiritual don't really vote as they have to be on their own dioceseans, and the Lords voting against the Commons outright is now rare.

    The US has not always been secular. It only disestablished the church upon independence, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Was Russia 'always secular' when the Soviets took over? In fact, the US seems to be more religious now than before.

    It's interesting to see how you've completely disregarded the fact that Wales has disestablished their church and has not turned Islamic.
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    (Original post by Kieselguhr)
    With a much larger Muslim population, it's more reasonable to assume they'd push for governance under their own religious laws here than it is in America.
    They may push but they have no hope of success. The best protection against Islamic incursion into UK law is to make the state completely secular: allow people to practice their religions but give them no privileges in doing so. That removes any argument that one religion should not be favoured over another.
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    Am I right to assume Kieselguhr is a UKIP MP and possibly an ali dupe?
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Something like 'Secularisation Bill'. I feel that too many people think this actually wants to abolish the CoE.
    I think people who'd misunderstand 'disestablishment' would misunderstand that too. Perhaps 'Separation of Church and State Bill'? A clunkier title I'm afraid, but surely considerably clearer.

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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I think people who'd misunderstand 'disestablishment' would misunderstand that too. Perhaps 'Separation of Church and State Bill'? A clunkier title I'm afraid, but surely considerably clearer.

    Andy98
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    barnetlad
    Good shout, I'll wait for the others to agree before making the change official though

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    The United States of America is an example of a system of government which has evolved around this idea of one believing more strongly in a certain religion and the other being open for all as it were. Essentially this would be interesting. The reason USA has become polarised around this matter is because they wanted to escape the overbearing oppression that our monarchy and religion were holding over them, so they purposefully created a separation of church and state. Now, this has created problems for them over the years as it has successfully become an issue for them. It has never been an issue adopting a state religion ourselves as we have had one entrenched in the minds of the british people. I personally favour having no state religion. It has no place in modern politics when you look at it irrationally. Religion shouldn't factor into the laws of the people and the every day well being of the people. That should always come first. We shouldn't have an idea of a state religion as it creates such a pro sentiment towards religion that constructive work may not be achievedl I can see the argument, it has never affected us, why bother outlawing it you ask? That is a good question. To that I have to say, why bother keeping one if it isn't truly enforced? There are no penalties of not following our state religion, and the law doesn't require it, so why bother having it? If you are going to have a state religion at least "sex it up" a bit and give us an incentive or punishment for following/not following

    Separate church and state, let people follow whatever religion they want, don't let your religion hinder your political view, and by extension the well being of the nation.
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