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    I actually do recognize when I first cam to life so did my mom. And I recognize when my son came to life as well. Birthday is the date of birth. But conception date is still memorable. And no it is a different stage of life. An infant looks very different from a 10 year old.

    I said a life is a life. As in it is what it is. So an unborn child is a life. And killing it is murder. It is what is. No matter how much you seek to run from it. I never said what you lied about me saying though. Keep trying to make up stuff it just shows how angry you are lol.


    No it just shows you can't follow easily. Or probably playing dumb. lol. I already said a baby by definition is a very young child and a child is anyone under 18 or before puberty. By those two definitions an unborn child is a baby as much as you wish it wasn't.


    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Yes, and what point is defined as the zero-point/start-point when measuring a person's age? Do you celebrate your birthday on the (approximate) day that you were conceived, or the day that you were born?

    Of course, this still doesn't do anything to address your refusal to acknowledge that there are different stages of development during a pregnancy and beyond. Only a biologically illiterate person would say that a zygote is the same thing as an infant.



    You said this:


    That's a pretty absolute statement. You added the exceptions later when I pointed out the contradiction.

    Funnily enough, you've contradicted yourself again: you said before that a life is a life whether anybody wants it to be or not, and now you're arguing that the lives of murderers are more dispensable because... *drum roll* ...you want it to be so. It really has come full circle, this 'argument.'



    So you believe in an eye-for-an-eye model of justice. You really are living in the Stone Age of ethics and human rights if you subscribe to that model.



    Read what I said again:





    Again, your refusal to admit that there's a difference between a zygote and a newborn infant makes you an unsuitable person with whom to talk about 'rights' of any kind. You're hoping to get by on mere assertion, with a few speculations about my character thrown in as supports; it won't work, I'm afraid.



    As explained before, you don't have any idea of what the word 'baby' means outside a colloquial context, so this is yet another foolish argument on your part.

    It's very likely, from the garbage you're spewing, that you haven't read anything on this matter or ethics in general, so I'll be signing off soon. It's an irony in itself that you saw fit to put this in the 'Debate & Current Affairs' forum.
    Now here's how you've failed.

    You keep ducking and refusing to actually show why abortion should be supported. You get upset that you can't support it. So you seek to attack the messanger. And that does absolutely nothing but ensure that I am right. Because I can back my points up. And you result to trying to find excuses on why you need to back out and never even try to defend your point because you my dear have no point.
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    (Original post by Anon993)
    I'm bringing up facts and you simply can't riggle out of them.
    Any proposition needs evidence before it can be recognised as a fact. Simply asserting 'facts' (do please produce these facts that you've been banging on about since page 1), followed by extraneous emotional garbage about eugenics and murder and Nazis is not how debate is conducted.

    I'm a black woman of course I believe in equality all.
    Non sequitur.

    you have said some people need their rights to be ignored so others can be advantaged
    Citation needed.

    you just used the fact that I had to change computers to do with me ignoring your point
    This is the first time you've mentioned having had to switch computers. I must be psychic as well as a manipulator to have pulled that one off.

    you're lying about me calling anyone names when I have not.
    Let the record speak for itself:

    (Original post by Anon993)
    It's equivalent to what the Nazis claimed with the jews.
    (Original post by Anon993)
    And you're basically saying people should be killed due to being handicapped. That's eugenics my dear.
    (Original post by Anon993)
    But you're probably British so that might sound all right to you to be judgmental of other people due to who their father is or because they're handicap.
    (Original post by Anon993)
    people act like killing a baby is no big deal which you basically just admitted to saying.
    And this is minus everything you've called me.

    And the facts? I've said them through this whole thread.
    I'm really starting to think that we're not quite on the same page when it comes to the plain meaning of words. By every reasonable definition of the word, you haven't produced a single 'fact' on this thread, only sentimental piffle to disguise your lack of substance.

    The baby has a heart
    It would really help your point if you knew something -- anything -- about the stages of development during pregnancy. A zygote does not have a heart.

    You're for oppression. And you're no different than the agenda held during slavery.
    (Original post by Anon993)
    you're lying about me calling anyone names when I have not.
    You just accused me of being supportive of slavery. Yeah, you're totally innocent of any personal attacks or name-calling, aren't you. :rolleyes:

    I am not being emotional
    Yes, you are.

    Yeah this is so like the guy that runs into a back saying he has a gun but never pulls it out. Yoy've falied it seems to prove anything. Because you can't. You say a lot of empty words. But you can't back up why you're pro abortion anti-women's rights and get mad. That's why the anti choice agenda you have is weak and transparent. It just is what it is.
    With some alterations, you've just written the perfect blurb for your own memoirs. :clap2:

    I'm done here; you're quite clearly not worth my time. Good night.
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    At this point I'm begging you to find a way to thwart this fact. But I know you can't and you won't.

    They are humans and they are babies. And I explained this several times I'm getting tired at this point.

    These human lives. And saying they have no life is a scientifically incorrect.

    They have their own heartbeat. They have their own human dna and they have their own body. And that constitutes that they have their own life. Do you not know what a heart does? Do you not know that is what signifies that the unborn child is alive? Then The definition of baby covers an unborn child. As a baby means a very young child. And a child means anyone under 18 or someone who hasn't hit puberty. Therefore an unborn child fits both categories and is a baby. Maybe you can't follow that's not my problem.

    And if you were shot 2 days ago you wouldn't be commenting on my thread. And you wouldn't exist. I know what death is and so does everyone even you.



    And no thank you I would never judge someone else's life to see whether they should die or not. That's not my plavce. That's up to them. And it's not your business either. That's my whole point. I believe in equality and no judgment against someone simply because they are handicap poor or who their father is. That's what you do and that ideology is no different than being racist. It's exact same thing.


    I gave you facts on how it's life and all you have done is try to ignore it and say ohhh my feelings are hurt you're insulting me. Like I said they have a heart their own dna and their own body no one has a right to judge their life besides them. It's not equality when you say some people should be killed and havr their right to live taken for someone else to have more rights. That's what abortion is taking the rights from the unborn and giving it to some woman just so she can feel a little comfortable that's just what I don't agree with.


    (Original post by Craig1998)
    Your argument is based off of no facts, it's based purely off the opinion that babies are human and so should be treated as humans. However, these are not babies, they are literally nothing. They hold no life, no pain and should not be subjected to a world that does not like them if they are not aborted. Put it this way, if you were aborted as a foetus, you would not even know, nobody here would be having this argument, you practically vanish from existence.

    We don't know whether the foetus that is being aborted is going to be the next Einstein or the next Hitler, so focusing on what it COULD be is not what we should do. We focus on the outcomes of it's existence at that point. Like would it cause harm to the mother, would it result in the baby not being treated correctly, would the genetics from a rapist pass onto the baby? Those are the things you need to consider.

    People have asked you for facts multiple times on this thread but you haven't shown them, you're presenting an empty argument with empty insults. You're calling us murderers and Nazis and saying we don't believe in equality. But this nation stands on equality if it's fair and in this case it isn't fair. Either we give the woman her choice by allowing her to have the abortion or we abort the foetus which, in your eyes, is human and deserves a life.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    Please read what I've said on page 2.

    You sourced Breitbart to start with, which is hardly going to give your argument a fair chance. The source you posted on that thread is pretty unrepresentative of the actual thing you're arguing about. You said there were overcrowded (with foreign children) foster care centres in America, then linked an article saying there were 400 children going to an airbase to stay, at which point they stay until they find a family member, then go to foster if they cant. Thats a very loose link and it's barely a good argument.

    Now, source your stuff properly if you're going to say they are facts.
    oh no I was actually talking about the source that said 61% of foster kids were of latin American descent in New Mexico alone. And the top 3 countries illegal immigration comes from is latin American countries.59% from mexico.
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    Yeah but most abortions are done in the 7 and 8 weeks from the lmp.

    A heart beat can form as early as 18 days from conception. So please look up your facts hun. I know this because in America we had a few bills on this. That were to ban abortion saying life is when there is a heartbeat that would effectively ban most abortions.

    Like I said my facts stand an unborn child has a heartbeat its own dna and its own body and its own life.

    One day you might just come up with something to support your argument. I doubt it. I have talked to so many like you. They get mad like you. Try to dodge the subject. Or just go back to trying to make personal attacks like you are doing.

    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Any proposition needs evidence before it can be recognised as a fact. Simply asserting 'facts' (do please produce these facts that you've been banging on about since page 1), followed by extraneous emotional garbage about eugenics and murder and Nazis is not how debate is conducted.



    Non sequitur.



    Citation needed.



    This is the first time you've mentioned having had to switch computers. I must be psychic as well as a manipulator to have pulled that one off.



    Let the record speak for itself:









    And this is minus everything you've called me.



    I'm really starting to think that we're not quite on the same page when it comes to the plain meaning of words. By every reasonable definition of the word, you haven't produced a single 'fact' on this thread, only sentimental piffle to disguise your lack of substance.



    It would really help your point if you knew something -- anything -- about the stages of development during pregnancy. A zygote does not have a heart.





    You just accused me of being supportive of slavery. Yeah, you're totally innocent of any personal attacks or name-calling, aren't you. :rolleyes:



    Yes, you are.



    With some alterations, you've just written the perfect blurb for your own memoirs. :clap2:

    I'm done here; you're quite clearly not worth my time. Good night.
    None of what I said was name calling. I never called you any of those things. But you came to a conclusion that that's the type of person you are and I'm not surprised at all.


    Nope you my dear are emotional and it's quite obvious. As I brought up facts and it's brought you into a tizzy. Like I'm somehow supposed to ignore it. Sorry not going to happen.

    I always win at this. You will always run. Because you can't support your theory no matter how hard you tried.
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Babies don't develop this for a looooooooooong time.


    In your excitement to write off all babies in the womb as non-human, you've pretty much written off all children under 1 as "not human."

    I think your point highlights that it is extremely difficult even as a pro-choicer to define exactly when life begins. So my question to is...why take that risk? If there's even a 10% chance that you're murdering an innocent child in there, it's not worth taking.

    SS
    My point is that it's difficult to determine when a foetus becomes human. Although I can't understand your last paragraph.

    (Original post by Anon993)
    You're upset lol that I destroyed one of your arguments. So you resort to name calling. Which isn't a great way to debate. It proves I'm right thank you.
    ...... I didn't resort to name calling. I also substantiated an argument, which you've wholly ignored.

    I don't care what you think is human life. That is inconsequential. Like I said she doesn't have two hearts it's not her body and it's not her life. A heartbeat is what drs look for signs of life even in embryos. You my dear are not a doctor. You could by your logic support killing the mentally disabled probably easily. And that shows how disgusting your philosophy appears to be as you are trying to support why it is ok to kill a baby.


    The antichoice (your philosophy) does switch due to convenience generally speaking.

    And we all know about how the Nazis compared the jews to the rats. Same thing you are doing. We all know how black Americans were treated during slavery like animals. You are on the their level. That's the same argument just against some other disenfranchised people. You're no different.
    If you don't care then why have you started a thread, thus opening up a debate and asking for other's opinions? You haven't engaged with any of my points and have entirely failed to substantiate any of your own. You just keep repeating heart beat = human and anyone who thinks otherwise is a murderer. I didn't say the embryo also constitutes the mother's body. I'm disputing at what point we can consider it human, which is what the debate surrounding abortion really concerns. In your opinion a foetus is a baby. In mine it is not.

    I also totally resent your final assertion. Not only is abortion incomparable to slavery, but this also highlights your own hypocrisy. You started your quote criticising me for insulting you (I merely insulted your reasoning, not you) and you finish your quote insulting me.

    To conclude: you continuously fail to provide any consistent logic or reasoning; fail to engage with other people's points; resort to insults and pronouncing people murderers; and take arguments out of context to undermine what other people are saying. All in all, you're not really worth arguing with.

    I suggest you have a look at some relevant literature: Peter Vardy's The Puzzle of Ethics might be interesting to start with
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    Anon993


    The weeds in my front garden have DNA and so are a life (according to your logic) should I leave them to grow to avoid being a murderer?

    The burger I had for dinner was a cow and cows have a heartbeat :/ should I go to prison?
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    I'm wholly ignorant because I don't agree with you. Care to be slightly more open minded I doubt you can.

    Whether it's human is a fact since it has human dna. Basically if it is not human. Neither are you. Because you have the exact dna you had as an unborn child.

    And I just think it's murder because that's what it is. That's the thing you aren't comfortable in your own belief so you harass me to hope that I'll accept how it is not really murder. When it is murder. It is stopping a human heartbeat it is stopping life. It is tearing a small defenseless human being limb from limb heart from body. They examine on the ultrasound to make sure every human body part is destroyed and then removed. That's what an abortion is. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts. But it is what it is.


    I brought up what was logical you brought up fluff and frustration. Either way. I'm off in two minutes so good luck in proving a point you don't have.
    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    My point is that it's difficult to determine when a foetus becomes human. Although I can't understand your last paragraph.


    ...... I didn't resort to name calling. I also substantiated an argument, which you've wholly ignored.


    If you don't care then why have you started a thread, thus opening up a debate and asking for other's opinions? You haven't engaged with any of my points and have entirely failed to substantiate any of your own. You just keep repeating heart beat = human and anyone who thinks otherwise is a murderer. I didn't say the embryo also constitutes the mother's body. I'm disputing at what point we can consider it human, which is what the debate surrounding abortion really concerns. In your opinion a foetus is a baby. In mine it is not.

    I also totally resent your final assertion. Not only is abortion incomparable to slavery, but this also highlights your own hypocrisy. You started your quote criticising me for insulting you (I merely insulted your reasoning, not you) and you finish your quote insulting me.

    To conclude: you continuously fail to provide any consistent logic or reasoning; fail to engage with other people's points; resort to insults and pronouncing people murderers; and take arguments out of context to undermine what other people are saying. All in all, you're not really worth arguing with.

    I suggest you have a look at some relevant literature: Peter Vardy's The Puzzle of Ethics might be interesting to start with
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    (Original post by Anon993)
    I don't get that as a woman. To me it's not a woman's issue. Abortion has to with both genders. It also annoys me that people assume if you are a woman you aren't completely prolife. I am prolife 200%. And I'm a woman. Even abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy isn't that comfortable to me. I'd prefer abortion to be like the last resort option when it comes to the life of a mother. It should never be up to anyone else whether another human being lives or dies . And it's not a woman's body. Nor a woman's reproductive rights as she has already produced. It's just not a woman's issue. It's human's rights issue. I just case support a any candidate that says people should die simply because their dad was a rapist or because they're handicapped. That doesn't make sense to me as a fellow human being. I don't see how it's assumed a woman can't understand that life should be protected? I just don't get why women are supposed to have one belief and one belief only. Why is that expected?
    Say someone was dying for a liver disease and the only way they could be saved was through a liver transplant. How would you feel if you had no say and were forced to donate part of your liver?

    Oh, and given you said you support the death penalty, you're anti-abortion not pro-life.
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    It's pure body autonomy. If I get pregnant, my body will be GROWING and SUPPORTING a life for 9 months. I can opt out, purely because it's my body. I own that uterus. The father of the child does not own the mother's uterus. The fact that the spawn in there is biologically half his ... well, as it's unborn, it's kinda irrelevant. Prior to birth, the fetus depends on the mother's body, which she owns. Therefore, if she decides to expel it from her uterus: that's her decision. It's become a 'women's issue', as you term it, because guess what? No one likes to be told what to do with their own body.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    Anon993


    The weeds in my front garden have DNA and so are a life (according to your logic) should I leave them to grow to avoid being a murderer?

    The burger I had for dinner was a cow and cows have a heartbeat :/ should I go to prison?
    yeah but they don't have human dna....

    Like I said it's a combination of the two. 1 it has human dna and he or she has a heart. I said it all in my last post like it or not. I don't care.
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    (Original post by Anon993)
    At this point I'm begging you to find a way to thwart this fact. But I know you can't and you won't.

    These human lives. And saying they have no life is a scientifically incorrect.

    And no thank you I would never judge someone else's life to see whether they should die or not. That's not my plavce. That's up to them. And it's not your business either. That's my whole point. I believe in equality and no judgment against someone simply because they are handicap poor or who their father is. That's what you do and that ideology is no different than being racist. It's exact same thing.


    I gave you facts on how it's life and all you have done is try to ignore it and say ohhh my feelings are hurt you're insulting me. Like I said they have a heart their own dna and their own body no one has a right to judge their life besides them. It's not equality when you say some people should be killed and havr their right to live taken for someone else to have more rights.
    In order of the bold bits:

    Stop calling this a 'fact', there are no facts here that you are presenting.

    I have not once said they have no life, I said they aren't human.

    Also why are you trying to make this a race thing? There is nothing here that is being racist, all were trying to argue about is whether a foetus is enough of a human being.. I don't understand what you're trying to ague with that point.

    When did I say 'ohhh my feelings are hurt you're insulting me', quote it. I have said that your arguments are empty and have no clear structure, but your insults have no effect on me because they're coming from someone who is calling me a murderer for having an opinion on something.

    That's what abortion is taking the rights from the unborn and giving it to some woman just so she can feel a little comfortable that's just what I don't agree with.
    Your wording here is clear you don't give two ****s about the woman, and you only care about the foetus she is carrying. If your view is to be taken, the woman has the same value of life as her foetus, and her consideration should be taken into account. Stop being so contradictory and try to understand why your view is not logical.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    She's right, no abortions, I say do as animals like mice/rats do. If you don't think it's the same time/don't have the resources to care for your offspring..well....it's messy. Nature in the raw!
    We have a society and an NHS and stuff to avoid "nature in the raw" as much as possible. If you want nature in the raw, then take off all your unnatural clothes, shut your unnatural computer, and go and hunt for your food with a spear in the wilderness for a few months, and then come back and tell me how much fun nature in the raw was.
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    (Original post by Anon993)
    They are humans and they are babies. And I explained this several times I'm getting tired at this point.

    These human lives. And saying they have no life is a scientifically incorrect.

    They have their own heartbeat. They have their own human dna and they have their own body. And that constitutes that they have their own life. Do you not know what a heart does? Do you not know that is what signifies that the unborn child is alive? Then The definition of baby covers an unborn child. As a baby means a very young child. And a child means anyone under 18 or someone who hasn't hit puberty. Therefore an unborn child fits both categories and is a baby. Maybe you can't follow that's not my problem.
    If someone were to hold a gun to a 2 year olds head and a hammer over a petri dish with a human embryo, you can save one, who would you save?
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    You're smokescreening again.

    Let me be more clear with you. I don't carewhat you're saying as nothing you're saying has been supported by anything.

    I said they do have life and are human because they have a heartbeat and human dna. If they are not human neither are you. As you have the same dna you had as an unborn child.


    It is a fact. Unborn children do have hearts. Unborn children do have human dna. And unborn children have their own body. Those are all facts. You seek to just destract from this. But it is not going to work sorry.





    (Original post by Craig1998)
    In order of the bold bits:

    Stop calling this a 'fact', there are no facts here that you are presenting.

    I have not once said they have no life, I said they aren't human.

    Also why are you trying to make this a race thing? There is nothing here that is being racist, all were trying to argue about is whether a foetus is enough of a human being.. I don't understand what you're trying to ague with that point.

    When did I say 'ohhh my feelings are hurt you're insulting me', quote it. I have said that your arguments are empty and have no clear structure, but your insults have no effect on me because they're coming from someone who is calling me a murderer for having an opinion on something.



    Your wording here is clear you don't give two ****s about the woman, and you only care about the foetus she is carrying. If your view is to be taken, the woman has the same value of life as her foetus, and her consideration should be taken into account. Stop being so contradictory and try to understand why your view is not logical.
    I am not making it a race thing at all. What I'm saying is that your point is the same and what slave owners tried to make by dehumanizing black people. And that you seek to do the same as they did. You take rights from others to make other people's lives more comfortable. Slave owners took the rights from black people to make white people have more comfortable lives. Andantichoice people like yourself take the right to chose from the child and give it to the mother in order to make her life more comfortable. And probably because you have hate for the unborn child of which you won't admit it to of course. It's a subconscious thing.


    I never insulted you. And it's obvious your argument is empty. As I have kept saying the same reason why I think it's murder and you fail to show how it is not. Instead you try to justify and explain why someone should murder someone. But you don't realize I'm talking about the act and you want to ignore the act. Because the justification sounds like a better way to sweeten up what it really is.


    Just another smokescreen. Can you do better? I doubt it.
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    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    Say someone was dying for a liver disease and the only way they could be saved was through a liver transplant. How would you feel if you had no say and were forced to donate part of your liver?

    Oh, and given you said you support the death penalty, you're anti-abortion not pro-life.
    No but that doesn't give me the right to rips them to shreds with scissors. Which is what an abortion is.

    And nope I'm prolife. The death penalty defends life. Asd in murderers take life. It's the only suitable punishment. But you my dear are antichoice . As you prefer to take the right to chose from the unborn child.
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    (Original post by Justanotherguy11)
    If someone were to hold a gun to a 2 year olds head and a hammer over a petri dish with a human embryo, you can save one, who would you save?
    If someone put gun to your mom's head and a gun to a baby's head who did you save?


    The answer will probably make you look bad lol either way
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    becos the bebe's in teh woaman
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    (Original post by MelTranfield)
    It's pure body autonomy. If I get pregnant, my body will be GROWING and SUPPORTING a life for 9 months. I can opt out, purely because it's my body. I own that uterus. The father of the child does not own the mother's uterus. The fact that the spawn in there is biologically half his ... well, as it's unborn, it's kinda irrelevant. Prior to birth, the fetus depends on the mother's body, which she owns. Therefore, if she decides to expel it from her uterus: that's her decision. It's become a 'women's issue', as you term it, because guess what? No one likes to be told what to do with their own body.
    Yeah it definitely is pure body autonomy. Which is why that woman should have no authority over the unborn child's body. It's not her body. It's not her decision. Birth control is her decision. But she's already reproduced. She's simply killing a child at this point. And that's why I believe in equality instead of giving women special rights that were intended for the someone else.

    You own that uterus but you don't own the child's body. Pregnancy does not make you grow any extra parts.

    And that's not what abortion is. It does not expel the fetus from the uterus. The first thing it does is tear the unborn child limb from limb. And as I said before it's not her body. It is not her dna she simply does not have two heartbeat and the unborn child's body is not her own. Therefore she should have no authority over it.

    Sorry truths will always hold over better than lies do. That's why your argument is weak.
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    (Original post by Craig1998)
    In order of the bold bits:




    Your wording here is clear you don't give two ****s about the woman, and you only care about the foetus she is carrying. If your view is to be taken, the woman has the same value of life as her foetus, and her consideration should be taken into account. Stop being so contradictory and try to understand why your view is not logical.
    Oh I forgot to answer your last paragraph.

    Considering you're a guy who's never been pregnant and I am a woman who has been pregnant I'm pretty sure I'm better at talking about that then you are. And have been in that situation better than you have.

    The fact is both are people. Both have lives. And from my view abortion affects the child way more than it will ever affect the woman. The woman does not die no matter either 3 of the options abortion adoption parenting.... An unborn baby does die with abortion. You keep trying to ignore this fact. You have to take both inconsideration. And you definitely don't when all you talk about is she this she that and are saying the baby ,must die for its mother or father's mistake. I'm sorry that will never sound fair or equal. You know that. That's why you don't want to hear it. And you don't like it don't read my posts. But that's exactly what I think about abortion. And I could never fathom how one could support it. I've talked tro so many on this. And it seems no one can justify it that's why you can't give me a good reason to support your claim o why you support abortion.
 
 
 
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