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    There are already many benefits to being a woman in the UK over being a man (listed by sleepysnooze). However there are some areas and countries where this isn't the case, and women have less rights, and this is what feminists should be fighting for, not problems that don't even exist...
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    Yes, those things all happen to men, but women are affected disproportionately in all areas, that's the whole point, and the whole reason why there's even any debate about the need to push towards equality/feminism. Men are generally speaking not victims of crimes that occur because of the fact that they are men. It is a rights violation yes and should be condemned. But it is not on the basis of their sex. It is violence, but not gender-based violence.

    So yes, violence against women is a form of discrimination.

    Istanbul Convention: "'violence against women' is understood as a violation of human rights and a form of discrimination against women and shall mean all acts of gender-based violence that result in, or are likely to result in, physical, sexual, psychological or economic harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life"
    Men are disproportionately the victims of certain crimes, particularly violent crime. Men are almost twice as likely to be the victims of violence.

    To say women are victims because they're women thus discriminated against is like saying I'm sexist against men because I wouldn't have sex with them.

    I really don't care what Istanbul Convention say


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    In the Western world? No
    Rest of the world, sure

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    (Original post by rational11)
    Women still dont have as many rights as men.
    In the Western world? If that is what you meant, give me a right that men have that women don't. (Military drafting, conscription for males, etc... are men only things. But in terms of rights)

    @ Istanbul Convention - really. What about crimes against any human? Please. If anything that is sexist. Women are not inherently victims, men are not inherently victims - unless something happens to them that puts them into a victim status. BUt to say that women are always victims does a great disservice to the entire sex.
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    I'm getting quite tired of repeating the same points that noone seems to understand. Yes Underscore__ you dont care what the Istanbul Convention says because it proves you to be wrong when you say violence against women is not discrimination.

    Noone here seems to understand that rights are not only positive things we have. It doesnt work like a little chart of rights and we can put a tick in the "men have it" and "women have it column". The point is that women's rights are more consistently undermined because of discriminatory attitudes and practices. In the UK yes, we are lucky enough for this not to be a massive problem, but it still happens - the gender pay gap and violence against women, including rape, can be potential results of this.

    Yes, I agree with all of you, violence against all of humankind, including both men and women is *****y and should be condemned. If you take violence as a whole, men are more frequently victims of violence because men engage more in violence. Noone here has said women are the sole victims.

    But women are by and large the only ones who are victims of gender-based violence (this includes rape)

    “[G]ender‐based violence against women” shall mean violence that is directed against a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately[.]
    (Art. 3 d, Council of Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence)

    This is a huge problem worldwide, this is why there are UN Conventions (including ratified by the UK) to prevent violence against women, this is why there are UN agencies, bodies, commissions, non governmental organisations dedicated to stamping it out, and this is why there is a need for a greater push for equality in this area.

    Mybe let's stop using the word feminism because noone can agree what it means and it seems to be confusing some people into thinking that I don't believe anything bad ever happens to men...
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    I'm getting quite tired of repeating the same points that noone seems to understand. Yes Underscore__ you dont care what the Istanbul Convention says because it proves you to be wrong when you say violence against women is not discrimination.

    Noone here seems to understand that rights are not only positive things we have. It doesnt work like a little chart of rights and we can put a tick in the "men have it" and "women have it column". The point is that women's rights are more consistently undermined because of discriminatory attitudes and practices. In the UK yes, we are lucky enough for this not to be a massive problem, but it still happens - the gender pay gap and violence against women, including rape, can be potential results of this.

    Yes, I agree with all of you, violence against all of humankind, including both men and women is *****y and should be condemned. If you take violence as a whole, men are more frequently victims of violence because men engage more in violence. Noone here has said women are the sole victims.

    But women are by and large the only ones who are victims of gender-based violence (this includes rape)

    “[G]ender‐based violence against women” shall mean violence that is directed against a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately[.]
    (Art. 3 d, Council of Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence)

    This is a huge problem worldwide, this is why there are UN Conventions (including ratified by the UK) to prevent violence against women, this is why there are UN agencies, bodies, commissions, non governmental organisations dedicated to stamping it out, and this is why there is a need for a greater push for equality in this area.

    Mybe let's stop using the word feminism because noone can agree what it means and it seems to be confusing some people into thinking that I don't believe anything bad ever happens to men...
    As, if I recall correctly, has already been pointed out, the gender pay gap is not evidence of discrimination. You can say that women's rights are more consistently undermined all you want, but for those poor unenlightened few who don't see it, maybe give some hard, tangible evidence (in the West, that is).
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    As, if I recall correctly, has already been pointed out, the gender pay gap is not evidence of discrimination. You can say that women's rights are more consistently undermined all you want, but for those poor unenlightened few who don't see it, maybe give some hard, tangible evidence (in the West, that is).
    I'll allow you that the gender pay gap is not in itself evidence of discrimination, but it does come about in part because of certain directly or indirectly discriminatory measures. There are (valid and legitimate) disagreements about how much of a part indirectly discriminatory attitudes play, so it's incredibly hard for us to say for sure. But social scientists have controlled studies for all other variables and still found that for every pound men earn, women earn less, which would seem to indicate that this is the case. I would point to studies/evidence etc, but you'll be able to find disagreement with a point I'm sure.

    I've already mentioned gender based violence and rape as two quite obvious and indisputable examples of rights violations that disproportionately occur to women.

    If you genuinely want to be "enlightened" (doubtful as you don't seem to have made an effort to understand my previous comments) then read this:

    http://thewomensresourcecentre.org.u...inal-links.pdf

    This is a report from the working group to the UN Committee monitoring the UK's progress on the implementation of the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women (189 countries are parties)

    I'm sure you wont care enough to read it so I'll summarise the main points where the UK needs improvement

    - women cannot always access courts effectively
    - female genital mutilation occurs in many areas
    - honour killings and domestic violence against women are still prevalent
    - forced marriage (as against women) is not a criminal offence
    - there is no comprehensive action plan to tackle trafficking in women and girls
    - prostitution is widespread
    - female prisoners are discriminated against and do not often have access to mental health care
    - occupational segregation and the gender pay gap still exists (you will dispute this one as evidence of undermining of women's rights I know and that's fair enough I guess, although it is taken seriously in the UN's reports).
    - women are significantly underrepresented in political and public life
    - sexual education is poor and often not age-appropriate (this ends up affecting - women and girls disproportionately in adolescence)

    I could go on... Bear in mind, that's just the UK, not "the West" and there are significantly greater problems in other European countries. Anyway. Replying to these posts is quite time consuming, so I'm gonna declare myself out at this stage as I feel through this post and then many others before it I've explained myself well enough, and if you wish to continue to disagree than that's totally your prerogative, cheers.
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    I'm getting quite tired of repeating the same points that noone seems to understand. Yes Underscore__ you dont care what the Istanbul Convention says because it proves you to be wrong when you say violence against women is not discrimination.

    Noone here seems to understand that rights are not only positive things we have. It doesnt work like a little chart of rights and we can put a tick in the "men have it" and "women have it column". The point is that women's rights are more consistently undermined because of discriminatory attitudes and practices. In the UK yes, we are lucky enough for this not to be a massive problem, but it still happens - the gender pay gap and violence against women, including rape, can be potential results of this.

    Yes, I agree with all of you, violence against all of humankind, including both men and women is *****y and should be condemned. If you take violence as a whole, men are more frequently victims of violence because men engage more in violence. Noone here has said women are the sole victims.

    But women are by and large the only ones who are victims of gender-based violence (this includes rape)

    “[G]ender‐based violence against women” shall mean violence that is directed against a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately[.]
    (Art. 3 d, Council of Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence)

    This is a huge problem worldwide, this is why there are UN Conventions (including ratified by the UK) to prevent violence against women, this is why there are UN agencies, bodies, commissions, non governmental organisations dedicated to stamping it out, and this is why there is a need for a greater push for equality in this area.

    Mybe let's stop using the word feminism because noone can agree what it means and it seems to be confusing some people into thinking that I don't believe anything bad ever happens to men...
    Under which statute has this UN convention about preventing violence against women been ratified?

    As I, and I'm sure plenty of others have said, the gender pay gap is a biased interpretation of statistics which have no context.

    Like I already said (which you seem to have ignored) saying raping a woman is sexism is like saying it's sexist that I won't have sex with a man.




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    (Original post by paddy25)
    I'll allow you that the gender pay gap is not in itself evidence of discrimination, but it does come about in part because of certain directly or indirectly discriminatory measures. There are (valid and legitimate) disagreements about how much of a part indirectly discriminatory attitudes play, so it's incredibly hard for us to say for sure. But social scientists have controlled studies for all other variables and still found that for every pound men earn, women earn less, which would seem to indicate that this is the case. I would point to studies/evidence etc, but you'll be able to find disagreement with a point I'm sure.

    I've already mentioned gender based violence and rape as two quite obvious and indisputable examples of rights violations that disproportionately occur to women.

    If you genuinely want to be "enlightened" (doubtful as you don't seem to have made an effort to understand my previous comments) then read this:

    http://thewomensresourcecentre.org.u...inal-links.pdf

    This is a report from the working group to the UN Committee monitoring the UK's progress on the implementation of the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women (189 countries are parties)

    I'm sure you wont care enough to read it so I'll summarise the main points where the UK needs improvement

    - women cannot always access courts effectively
    - female genital mutilation occurs in many areas
    - honour killings and domestic violence against women are still prevalent
    - forced marriage (as against women) is not a criminal offence
    - there is no comprehensive action plan to tackle trafficking in women and girls
    - prostitution is widespread
    - female prisoners are discriminated against and do not often have access to mental health care
    - occupational segregation and the gender pay gap still exists (you will dispute this one as evidence of undermining of women's rights I know and that's fair enough I guess, although it is taken seriously in the UN's reports).
    - women are significantly underrepresented in political and public life
    - sexual education is poor and often not age-appropriate (this ends up affecting - women and girls disproportionately in adolescence)

    I could go on... Bear in mind, that's just the UK, not "the West" and there are significantly greater problems in other European countries. Anyway. Replying to these posts is quite time consuming, so I'm gonna declare myself out at this stage as I feel through this post and then many others before it I've explained myself well enough, and if you wish to continue to disagree than that's totally your prerogative, cheers.
    What is your obsession with the UN? It's an utterly irrelevant private members club for world leaders to have a knees up.

    Please link these studies that give so much evidence to the pay gap being a result of sexism because I doubt their existence and even if they exist I doubt their credibility


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    (Original post by NoPunInThisName)
    Far too many feminists yet to grasp the concept of middle-ground. It seems to be either you're not a feminist or you're that much of a feminist you lose all respect for your cause.
    "feminazis" as it were are just misandrististic. The "middle ground" is what everybody should aim for! I guess gender shouldn't define you... I'm a feminist so I believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. Being misandristic (hating men) is not being "that much of a feminist" being "that much of a feminist" is fighting for gender equality. EQUALity<- see equal ("the middle ground". I believe that EVERYONE should be EQUAL. No favouritism towards white cisgender men, which does exist, but no favouritism toward transgender women of colour either. No one should be put above others, we should all just be equal, at the moment it's a hill with white cis men at the top, that's a fact, and we need to make it flat hilless land...

    So yeah...
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    A lot of feminists feel that by simply stating something is gender discrimination makes it reality. An honest conversation about stereotypes and fact-based arguments seem to be rare. Until this isn't happening, I do honestly think society will remain divided on whether feminism is necessary to achieve equality.
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    Name a single right men have that women do not. Note a right is either universal capacity or statutory so items such as supposed stigmas or stereotypes are not rights and therefore non applicable

    Oh and a woman cannot be found guilty of rape according to law despite assertions to the contrary

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    Can we just appreciate the wage gap, not being able to DRIVE in some middle eastern countries, forced into marriages in other countries, and just another example THE GLASS ****ING CEILING
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    (Original post by Nadile)
    There are already many benefits to being a woman in the UK over being a man (listed by sleepysnooze). However there are some areas and countries where this isn't the case, and women have less rights, and this is what feminists should be fighting for, not problems that don't even exist...
    Wage gap, glass ceiling, societal judgement, cat calling, rape and rape shaming. Need I go on? These all exist in the UK. So uh you are wrong there are problems that need to be fixed everywhere so everyone can be equal. Even your precious glistening "perfect " UK.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Men are also discriminated against so are all of their rights void?

    The gender pay gap has been shown to be a generous interpretation of figures, used completely without context, I don't understand why feminists keep bringing it up. Violence against a woman is not discrimination at all.

    Well firstly rape isn't something that happens exclusively to women and secondly men are more likely to be the victims of other crimes so your point is redundant


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    To put it kindly your being stupidly short sited. Violence against a particular group of people e.g. Women simply because their gender, race etc. makes you think you can. Prejudice plain and simple. Your vague "other crimes" statement is cute however sexual violence is the issue being dealt with as it tends to happen BECAUSE of GENDER so the point is not at all redundant and yours is in fact irrelevant. I understand you will never be able to comprehend what being a minority is like as your probably some white cisgender male *******. If not then you should want your own equality and by default want everyone elses. You can't be equal unless EVERYONE is equal or it's not true equality.
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    (Original post by DreamingBigger)
    Wage gap, glass ceiling, societal judgement, cat calling, rape and rape shaming. Need I go on? These all exist in the UK. So uh you are wrong there are problems that need to be fixed everywhere so everyone can be equal. Even your precious glistening "perfect " UK.
    The wage gap is taken from figures which are used without context. The argument that it is due to sexism is a fallacy. Again glass ceiling isn't really a thing, just another thing invented by feminists so they can play the victim. Everyone is judged, men and women. Cat calling is a result of ignorant morons who don't know how communicate properly, it's not sexism. Rape isn't sexist. We don't have a problem with 'rape shaming' the closest thing we have is men being not guilty yet still being ostracised


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    (Original post by DreamingBigger)
    To put it kindly your being stupidly short sited. Violence against a particular group of people e.g. Women simply because their gender, race etc. makes you think you can. Prejudice plain and simple. Your vague "other crimes" statement is cute however sexual violence is the issue being dealt with as it tends to happen BECAUSE of GENDER so the point is not at all redundant and yours is in fact irrelevant. I understand you will never be able to comprehend what being a minority is like as your probably some white cisgender male *******. If not then you should want your own equality and by default want everyone elses. You can't be equal unless EVERYONE is equal or it's not true equality.
    So if rape is sexier then I am also sexist for not having sex with men? Rape happens to women more often because most men are heterosexual, so perhaps it's hetrophobia. That's cute, you felt the need for a personal attack because you can't engage in a grown up debate


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Men are also discriminated against so are all of their rights void?

    The gender pay gap has been shown to be a generous interpretation of figures, used completely without context, I don't understand why feminists keep bringing it up. Violence against a woman is not discrimination at all.

    Well firstly rape isn't something that happens exclusively to women and secondly men are more likely to be the victims of other crimes so your point is redundant


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    Do men get catcalls everyday? Do men get told to let the other person do the heavy lifting? Do men get turned down for a job despite the same qualifications because they might want maternity leave? Do men get told they can't be taken seriously in a profession because of they're gender? Or get judged for they're sexual activity negatively? In some cases maybe. But on a large scale? NO you want to bring up the we've all been discriminated against? HELL NO! Men (especially White cis men) do not know what discrimination is like so they think someone choosing someone more qualified for a job is discrimination or that they were just chosen because they were of colour/female when really they had to be more qualified to have a leg to stand on at interview. So no men's rights aren't void. They are prioritised. It should be EQUAL no priority to anyone based on colour of skin/sexyality/gender. Nothing. Nada. Nil.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    So if rape is sexier then I am also sexist for not having sex with men? Rape happens to women more often because most men are heterosexual, so perhaps it's hetrophobia. That's cute, you felt the need for a personal attack because you can't engage in a grown up debate

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    How is that what you got from this? Let me try again. Heterophobia? Let's shut that down right there. Sexual preference is not sexist obviously and at no point did I imply that. Rape is committed mainly by heterosexual men towards women. Now there are cases in which this is different however this is most common. Rape is SEXUAL ASSAULT (I'm going to assume you know what that is or can google a definition) this means that it tends to be sexually charged in the case that is most common heterosexual men rape women and therefore there is an element of sexism at the root of that. This leads on to women being told it's their fault because they dress "too sexy" and men for some reason wouldn't be able to control themselves. Fundamentally rape is a societal issue that needs to be tackled as it undermines gender equality in a HUGE way by implying a women can be forced into sex and then blamed for it which is not true of men or children (not a gender I understand but hopefully you'll see where I am coming from).Grown up enough for you Sir/Madam.
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    (Original post by 8igBusTyc00n)
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    Neither of those statements are true.
    Sincerely,
    a feminist
 
 
 
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