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Should the UK leave or remain in the EU Watch

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  • View Poll Results: Should the UK leave or remain in the EU?
    Leave
    31.96%
    Remain in
    68.04%

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    (Original post by k4l397)
    Accidently hit leave - I swear my brain is switched off today. I'm leaning towards stay, but I'm not closed off to idea of leaving - chances are I'll vote to stay though. At the moment I don't feel I know enough to make an informed choice so will probably spend a bit of time doing research at some point to try and get a more balanced view. In terms of arguments for staying, I feel like the EU has a much bigger voice against corporations and multinationals and in that respect a good thing. Also allows us to more easily work on a whole range of issues with other countries. I do however acknowledge Cameron's deal a lot less focussed on this and more focussed on economic benefits of EU and migrant benefits ect. The best argument I've seen to leave has been in regards to how undemocratic the EU is / can be. But overall I'd like to see more research. I feel like the timescale they've given in all honesty is ridiculous and it's like we are making a blind decision - we need more data if we are to make an informed decision.
    You know Greece had that austerity referendum? Even someone like me who hates anti-austerity was angry that the EU just said no to it and stopped democracy in process. That's one reason I'd leave.
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    This whole issue very much confuses me.

    Those that say to leave say we'll have better control of our borders, that our economy will be better and we'll be able to get trade deals with other nations easier.

    Those that say to stay usually say... we'll negotiate better control of our borders, and that... our economy will be better and we'll be able to trade with other nations more easily?

    ?????
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    VOTING TO REMAIN IN
    People think leaving will be a nice quick fix to all of our problems. You're all wrong. Countries like Norway and Sweden not in the EU took decades to get where they now are. And this pressing issue of migrant control. Just because we wont be in the EU doesn't stop them from setting the rules. Norway and Sweden receive more immigrants in proportion to their population than Germany! This is because European legislation told them to. The Agricultural sector in the UK will implode. Yes we have foreign quota to fill on production, but the subsidies from the EU far outstrip the negatives they cause. If we leave food prices will rise very quickly. Oil prices will rise very quickly. International relations will be strained if we do. The USA our largest economic partner will struggle to adapt to a non-EU Britain. With Obama even stating it will be a mistake to leave!

    Tories = 60% will vote to remain in
    Labour = 75% will vote to remain in
    Lib Dems = 90% will vote to remain in

    It will end up being a split of 60:40 to remain in. Imo.

    *like the majority of the other people poll* :"
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Should the UK Leave or remain in the EU
    we should leave for two reasons. the banter plus we can replicate norways single market economy which is effective
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    (Original post by Sharvey98)
    Tories = 60% will vote to remain in
    I really wouldn't be too sure about that one, a lot of Tory MPs/members/voters are at least mildly eurosceptic - hence why Boris has jumped in with the outers in order to boost his chances of leading the party.

    Also, I have looked at YouGov polling and even roughly 20% of Lib Dem voters want to leave - though that still makes us one of the most europhile groupings - so I don't think it will be anywhere near 90% on that front.
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    As for the discussion, I think Bagehot's (The Economist) recent blog about the notion of sovereignty in the 21st century is well worth a read. This echoes very much what the PM has said about illusory sovereignty. A leave vote would lead us to have a greater deal of raw power over our own laws and institutions, but said institutions would lose traction in imposing their will outside of the UK, effectively reducing real British power.

    After all, very few would want us to pull out of NATO as it offers us a great deal of military protection and geopolitical influence, even though our membership constitutes a loss of sovereignty (as we are obliged to come to the defence of any NATO member under attack).
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    If we get the chance I'm going to vote to leave.
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    (Original post by Pro Crastination)
    As for the discussion, I think Bagehot's (The Economist) recent blog about the notion of sovereignty in the 21st century is well worth a read. This echoes very much what the PM has said about illusory sovereignty. A leave vote would lead us to have a greater deal of raw power over our own laws and institutions, but said institutions would lose traction in imposing their will outside of the UK, effectively reducing real British power.

    After all, very few would want us to pull out of NATO as it offers us a great deal of military protection and geopolitical influence, even though our membership constitutes a loss of sovereignty (as we are obliged to come to the defence of any NATO member under attack).
    Perhaps but it ignore that we can't do certain things in the world because we are in the eu and let's face it the public largely care about what goes on in their country not others.


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    (Original post by paul514)
    Perhaps but it ignore that we can't do certain things in the world because we are in the eu and let's face it the public largely care about what goes on in their country not others.


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    Certainly, but I'm also confident that many are aware that we no longer live in a world of distinct, separate nation states that fully provide for themselves economically/politically/militarily etc. Hence what happens in other countries should frequently be of concern to everybody whether they choose to care or not.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    You know Greece had that austerity referendum? Even someone like me who hates anti-austerity was angry that the EU just said no to it and stopped democracy in process. That's one reason I'd leave.
    That's absolutely reasonable - you could probably guess I'm on the opposite side of the debate on austerity but as someone who is very passionate about democracy, had it been the other way I'd have been equally annoyed about that. It's the main reason why I'm still undecided on which one to vote atm, and one of the big things I want to look into before making a choice.
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    Let's just say if the referendum was today, I'd vote to leave. I'm going to keep reading about it and listening to debates until the day though because I'm not a bigot.
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    This issue feels like it's one side 'scaremongering' then the otherside 'scaremongering', meaning that nobody can really believe what either side is saying. I'm voting to remain in, we have an idea of what the situation would be like if we stayed in the EU, but it really is going into the unknown (nobody can be sure how it'll all pan out) if we decide to leave.

    I will say though, the vote to remain argument seems a lot stronger than the vote to leave, on the forum I've seen much better, more consitent and more sourced arguments from those wanting to stay. It doesn't feel like the vote leave argument is trying.
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    (Original post by Pro Crastination)
    I really wouldn't be too sure about that one, a lot of Tory MPs/members/voters are at least mildly eurosceptic - hence why Boris has jumped in with the outers in order to boost his chances of leading the party.

    Also, I have looked at YouGov polling and even roughly 20% of Lib Dem voters want to leave - though that still makes us one of the most europhile groupings - so I don't think it will be anywhere near 90% on that front.
    Conservative grassroots are for the most part voting to leave. (I think it's about 70 percent voting out and 30 in, with labour being vice versa)

    However, much like on the Labour Party grassroots tend to be more zealous than the parliamentary party and can be hell bent on making the party less electable- see the Tories under IDS or Labour now. Whilst pragmatism alone is a bad thing, there needs to be a degree of it.
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    (Original post by k4l397)
    That's absolutely reasonable - you could probably guess I'm on the opposite side of the debate on austerity but as someone who is very passionate about democracy, had it been the other way I'd have been equally annoyed about that. It's the main reason why I'm still undecided on which one to vote atm, and one of the big things I want to look into before making a choice.
    I'd recommend listening to Varoufakis on the matter (who supports Britain staying).

    anyone who thinks that Greece reverting to the drachma would have solved things is an idiot. Outside the EU and the Euro (which the government and the majority of Greeks still overwhelmingly support) things would have been the same- the problem here was the lack of fiscal Union which meant that the states involved in the bail out had to individually mediate the terms of the bail out.

    Unless you think it's democratic that tax payers from Belgium prop up a debt ridden Greece state which won't do anything to relieve its debt. I think it's only fair that creditors especially if they're from other democratic governments have s say. (In case any eurosceptics think that's the case now- look at pre Renzi).

    Essentially there needs to be both political and fiscal Union for mainland Europe. Although I think Britain should fully integrate with this EU I do actually think Cameron's proposals for a two speed EU could actually work.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    You know Greece had that austerity referendum? Even someone like me who hates anti-austerity was angry that the EU just said no to it and stopped democracy in process. That's one reason I'd leave.
    The IMF and World Bank have been pulling this crap on LEDCs for years, they also had a hand in what happened in Greece and yet they don't seem to draw the same ire, why?

    (Original post by Pro Crastination)
    Certainly, but I'm also confident that many are aware that we no longer live in a world of distinct, separate nation states that fully provide for themselves economically/politically/militarily etc. Hence what happens in other countries should frequently be of concern to everybody whether they choose to care or not.
    I don't think there has ever in human history been a situation where nation states (or their pre-cursors) have been completely self-reliant, distinct entities. People have always traded, always made pacts with their neighbours and world trade is much older than people seem to believe.
 
 
 
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