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Should the UK leave or remain in the EU Watch

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  • View Poll Results: Should the UK leave or remain in the EU?
    Leave
    31.96%
    Remain in
    68.04%

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    (Original post by Beechey)
    ... The UK has (by far) one of the most independent, far-reaching foreign relation departments of any nation. We really should not downplay the UK's ability to influence affairs and make agreements alone.
    Article 26(1), Treaty on European Union as amended by Lisbon:

    "1. The European Council shall identify the Union’s strategic interests, determine the objectives of and define general guidelines for the common foreign and security policy, including for matters with defence implications. It shall adopt the necessary decisions."

    This had little real effect until November 2014 when the Member State veto was abolished. The EU Council now decides by Qualified Majority Voting and the UK has 8.5% of the vote.

    Why do you think the Tories went to all that trouble on renegotiating if the EU didn't really exist?
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Meanwhile outside the EU our voice is 0.89% of the world's population. Whoopedy-do.

    Lack of escape? The Treaties lay out a quite explicit means of 'escape'.
    The USA is only a small % of the global population so, as you say, of no consequence.

    If you vote "Remain" the EU and UK Establishment will never permit another referendum unless there is near civil war.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Half the growth rate is a great deal. It is not a small difference.

    No Welsh person imagines that they live in a powerful and influential Wales. Prior to 2014 and the abolition of EU Council vetoes the Welsh lived in a powerful and influential UK. The whole reason for devolution was that the UK did not provide sufficient independence for Scotland etc. even within the UK. In the same way the EU will not provide sufficient independence for the UK.

    The EU no longer governs on consensus, since 2014 it governs on Qualified Majority Voting.
    I'm going in circles with economics with you so i'm not going to engage further in that direction.

    Nothing bar full independence will be enough for eurosceptics and for Scottish nationalists.

    QMV sounds like a fair deal to me- any attempt at making the EU more democratic is met by horror from eurosceptics who want to paint it as undemocratic etc. A broken and divided europe will please only nationalists and hedge fund managers who get to profit from it.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    If Britain leaves, Britain will have 0% influence on the EU so how is that better than 8%? The EU will not simply vanish and have no effect on the UK, it would still have the largest single influence on the UK economy and will make policies that affect the UK.
    If the UK leaves it will have 100% influence on its own affairs, if it remains it will have 8.5%, it will be governed from elsewhere.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    ..
    Nothing bar full independence will be enough for eurosceptics and for Scottish nationalists.

    QMV sounds like a fair deal to me- any attempt at making the EU more democratic is met by horror from eurosceptics who want to paint it as undemocratic etc. A broken and divided europe will please only nationalists and hedge fund managers who get to profit from it.
    I am glad that you are openly stating that the EU will end up with a lack of independence for the UK and we will be run from Brussels.

    If only more pro-EU people would be honest about their beliefs and not use the Claude Monnet method of gradual subversion.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    I am glad that you are openly stating that the EU will end up with a lack of independence for the UK and we will be run from Brussels.

    If only more pro-EU people would be honest about their beliefs and not use the Claude Monnet method of gradual subversion.
    I think the modus operandi of statehood can only be maintained by externalizing outside threats as opposes to making life better for its internal habitats. Dictators do it all the time- 'we will only be free when etc etc etc'.

    Furthermore, 'sovereignty' if such a concept has ever existed is completely at the mercy of global forces, particularly the capitalist system but also environmental factors.

    The interests of the UK citizens is thus better served in union with Europe to better tackle these threats and to to improve their lives,
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    (Original post by alexandercrowth)
    .....
    6. I am not a right wing extremist but I agree with this PVV MP in Holland: "The British are forgetting their germanic-nordic ancestry and leaning towards asianization of Britain.". Sorry but this is true! We are Germanic, Celtic and we all know it. I would prefer staying together with the Germans and the Danes than with Pakistan and India

    I will be voting to stay as I am an overseas voter
    WOW!

    I am voting to leave partly because, as someone who spent much of their short life in London, I believe that the UK is the only safe place for our people.

    I wouldn't trust your Slovenians, Croatians and Germans with the safety of my friends and neighbours. They were killing minorities that they didn't like within living memory.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    If you vote "Remain" the EU and UK Establishment will never permit another referendum unless there is near civil war.
    Hogswash. Prove it.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I think the modus operandi of statehood can only be maintained by externalizing outside threats as opposes to making life better for its internal habitats. Dictators do it all the time- 'we will only be free when etc etc etc'.

    Furthermore, 'sovereignty' if such a concept has ever existed is completely at the mercy of global forces, particularly the capitalist system but also environmental factors.

    The interests of the UK citizens is thus better served in union with Europe to better tackle these threats and to to improve their lives,
    What a wonderful argument for Empire! The Raj should have had you as their public relations guru. The Soviets would have loved you, mind you, Stalin had figured this out and perpetually assailed the Russians with imagined terrorist threats.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Article 26(1), Treaty on European Union as amended by Lisbon:

    "1. The European Council shall identify the Union’s strategic interests, determine the objectives of and define general guidelines for the common foreign and security policy, including for matters with defence implications. It shall adopt the necessary decisions."

    This had little real effect until November 2014 when the Member State veto was abolished. The EU Council now decides by Qualified Majority Voting and the UK has 8.5% of the vote.

    Why do you think the Tories went to all that trouble on renegotiating if the EU didn't really exist?
    I think that you're confusing the European Council with the Council of the European Union/Council of Ministers.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    I am voting to leave partly because, as someone who spent much of their short life in London, I believe that the UK is the only safe place for our people.

    I wouldn't trust your Slovenians, Croatians and Germans with the safety of my friends and neighbours. They were killing minorities that they didn't like within living memory.
    1: Again, eurosceptics still think we're living in the 1940's...

    2: Britains history isnt that much better than Nazi germanies i'm afraid- the Britishg were the first pioneers of concentration camps and had all sorts of unpleasant ways of dealing with gay people and 'sub normal' people. If you look at some of the institutionaslised cases of abuse, particularly for 'troublemakers' , fromas recent as the 80's it really does make you wonder...
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    Nice debate going guys .... Keep it up ( will read the full 5 pages in a bit )
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    Many people in this country are delusional; the UK is a Capitalist country which is not in the least bit self-sufficient, therefore leaving the EU would be disastrous for the economy. Sure you'll have less of those *sarc* slimy Romanians and Bulgarians coming in but this country benefits a lot from trade opportunities that being in the EU provides.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    What a wonderful argument for Empire! The Raj should have had you as their public relations guru.
    Funny, I don't remember us getting invaded. (Ironically the EU unlike member states actually came about through consent rather than force of arms!)

    The Soviets would have loved you, mind you, Stalin had figured this out and perpetually assailed the Russians with imagined terrorist threats.
    Yes I know - he wanted a sovereign Russia and was on your side of the fence.

    See the distinction between Trotsky and Stalin. Stslin was essentially a nationalist.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Hogswash. Prove it.
    The Labour and SNP parties are openly pro EU. The Tories are also officially pro-EU but Cameron is hoping that a referendum will terminate the dissent amongst its members. All three political parties being pro-EU is not a recipe for a further referendum to leave.

    The Treaty on the Functioning of the EU has almost all areas of government as "shared competences" with the EU so the EU can expand its power without the need for any further Treaties of votes. The expansion of EU power will not trigger any further votes or referendums.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    1: Again, eurosceptics still think we're living in the 1940's...
    The Balkan ethnic "cleansings" were in the 1990s.

    2: Britains history isnt that much better than Nazi germanies i'm afraid- the Britishg were the first pioneers of concentration camps and had all sorts of unpleasant ways of dealing with gay people and 'sub normal' people. If you look at some of the institutionaslised cases of abuse, particularly for 'troublemakers' , fromas recent as the 80's it really does make you wonder...
    Rubbish. In the Boer War "concentration" meant "grouping together" and the deaths were caused by epidemics which also affected British troops, not gas chambers.

    The issue at hand is that you want Internationalism, eventual global government. This will lead to a monoculture over the entire globe and, when the global government becomes corrupt, a tyranny that will last for centuries with no hope of help from outside.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    The Labour and SNP parties are openly pro EU. The Tories are also officially pro-EU but Cameron is hoping that a referendum will terminate the dissent amongst its members. All three political parties being pro-EU is not a recipe for a further referendum to leave.
    But that's not a problem. If they enjoy a majority of support among the public, then they have the right to make that call. If they lose support, then the matter becomes open again. You seem to want to be able to call a referendum when you feel like it, not when the political climate calls for it.

    That's democracy, sorry.

    The Treaty on the Functioning of the EU has almost all areas of government as "shared competences" with the EU so the EU can expand its power without the need for any further Treaties of votes.
    I'd like a pretty clear citation for this. The EU Treaties quite clearly partition EU competences.

    The expansion of EU power will not trigger any further votes or referendums.
    This is a downright lie. It is, and has always been, a matter of unanimity among Member States for Treaty revisions to take place.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    The Labour and SNP parties are openly pro EU. The Tories are also officially pro-EU but Cameron is hoping that a referendum will terminate the dissent amongst its members. All three political parties being pro-EU is not a recipe for a further referendum to leave.

    The Treaty on the Functioning of the EU has almost all areas of government as "shared competences" with the EU so the EU can expand its power without the need for any further Treaties of votes. The expansion of EU power will not trigger any further votes or referendums.
    Regardless of whether there will be another referendum by my reckoning a very clear majority of MPs will vote in- a recent yougov Poll found that out voters were in particular older and less educated peoe whereas the reverse is true of those tending to vote in.

    ( in my experience eurosceptics are either very dumb or very clever with in voters tending to be in the middle)

    I think the media is actually the most eurosceptics institution in Britain- it will be interesting to see what Side murdoch chooses.
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    I feel annoyed that I am going to have to vote in a national referendum that is purely about internal Tory Party politics and has little to do with the actual facts on the ground.

    Referendums should be held when there is a pressing national consensus and a driving national imperative to resolve a matter of crucial importance. Not when there are a bunch of baying madcap Tory right wing backbenchers stuck in the 1950s and a weak leader desperate to head off a threat from a small party full of even crazier people.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    But that's not a problem. If they enjoy a majority of support among the public, then they have the right to make that call. If they lose support, then the matter becomes open again. You seem to want to be able to call a referendum when you feel like it, not when the political climate calls for it.

    That's democracy, sorry.
    No, that is a Parliamentary System. The UK has occasional referendums in recognition of the fact that the Parties do not necessarily represent the People.

    I'd like a pretty clear citation for this. The EU Treaties quite clearly partition EU competences.
    Yes, the "shared competences" can be expanded:

    "2. When the Treaties confer on the Union a competence shared with the Member States in a specific area, the Union and the Member States may legislate and adopt legally binding acts in that area. The Member States shall exercise their competence to the extent that the Union has not exercised its competence. The Member States shall exercise their competence again to the extent that the Union has decided to cease exercising its competence."
    Treaty on Functioning of European Union
    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...28848/7310.pdf Title I, Article 2:

    The list of shared competences is very long indeed.
    a) internal market;
    (b) social policy, for the aspects defined in this Treaty;
    (c) economic, social and territorial cohesion;
    (d) agriculture and fisheries, excluding the conservation of marine biological
    resources;
    (e) environment;
    (f) consumer protection;
    (g) transport;
    (h) trans-European networks;
    (i) energy;
    (j) area of freedom, security and justice;
    (k) common safety concerns in public health matters, for the aspects defined in this Treaty.

    EU already has complete competence over:
    Customs union, the establishing of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market, monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the euro, the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy, common commercial policy.

    Elsewhere the EU has control of Foreign Affairs and Security, including defence:

    Article 24 of the Treaty on European Union:"1. The Union’s competence in matters of common foreign and security policy shall cover all areas of foreign policy and all questions relating to the Union’s security, including the progressive framing of a common defence policy that might lead to a common defence"

    This is a downright lie. It is, and has always been, a matter of unanimity among Member States for Treaty revisions to take place.
    No it isn't a lie - see above.
 
 
 
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