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Should the UK leave or remain in the EU Watch

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  • View Poll Results: Should the UK leave or remain in the EU?
    Leave
    31.96%
    Remain in
    68.04%

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    (Original post by Dumachi)
    So people want to stay because:

    1. They have destroyed the UK's manufacturing industry.
    2. They have flooded the UK with there anti dredging laws.
    3. They have destroyed the UK with mass immigration.
    4. They have bankrupt the UK by illegal usury debt.
    5. They have destroyed fishing with there Laws
    6. They are privatizing the NHS and destroying it with TTIP.
    7. They are forcing GM food on us because of TTIP despite great concerns on there safety. (USA is most unhealthy country in the world because of them)

    Excellent, cool.
    You missed out:

    9. Caused the Maidan protests that led to the Ukraine war
    10. Failed to implement border controls despite having competence for borders
    11. Wrecked the economy of Greece to ensure that French and German banks were secure
    12. Eased off on animal transport across borders to allow E. European puppy farms to operate in the UK
    13. Failed to control Chinese dumping of refined metals - again an EU competence - and so causing the closure of the Tata steelworks

    Oh this wonderful EU! The remain camp are kamikaze!
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    ..
    If it was a world federation of secular nation states and universal human rights then yes, unreservedly.
    How monstrous.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    You missed out:

    Caused the Maidan protests that led to the Ukraine war
    Utter rubbish. Tin hat brigaaaaaade

    Failed to implement border controls despite having competence for borders
    The EU has the competence to lay down the conditions of entry and residence for third-country nationals entering and residing legally in one Member State for purposes of family reunification. Member States still retain the right to determine admission rates for people coming from third countries to seek work.

    Wrecked the economy of Greece to ensure that French and German banks were secure
    Pretty sure Greece did that to itself, and you talk as if it wouldn't have happened if the EU was not there.

    Eased off on animal transport across borders to allow E. European puppy farms to operate in the UK
    To my knowledge puppy farming is still law in England and Wales.

    Failed to control Chinese dumping of refined metals - again an EU competence - and so causing the closure of the Tata steelworks
    Yes, because the EU is now, apparently, able to force other countries to do its bidding. The UK still has a very loud and independent voice worldwide, and Westminster failed to avoid the very same thing.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    The whole ethos if the reactionary right is essentially one of hypocrisy and nonsense.

    They rage about Muslim grooming gangs but support institutions that facilitate mass child abuse

    They rage about immigrants taking job but privately export jobs on the cheap ( see Trimp get caught out on this, or UKIP employing Eastern Europeans to hand out leaflets!)

    Moan about wage deflation for ordinary workers but are against unions or indeed pay rises ('Dirty' Desmond of the Express hasn't given his employees a pay rise in twenty years)

    Rage against an apparent 'establishment' but are well funded through hedge fund managers and dodgy lobbyists and the media

    Condemn the EUs alleged democratic deficit but vote against measures to approve it. Strongly support having an unelected head of state. Or see no difference between the UK and a dictatorship (here they meet the crazies on the reactionary left wing- hey Chomsky!)

    "A reactionary is a person who holds political views that favor a return to the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which they believe possessed characteristics (discipline, respect for authority, etc.) that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society."

    How on earth does that describe an anarchist like Chomsky? What is this "
    previous political state of society" Chomsky would like to go back to? Anarchist Catalonia? :laugh:

    Everything I've read surrounding Chomsky's views on the undemocratic nature of western liberal democracies is based around his thoeires of how real existing state capitalism work. His and Manufacturing Consent sociology is at the crux of this and it is all about how people are controlled in a society where technically everyone has rights, freedom of speech etc compared to brutal police states like the then Soviet Union that he described as a dungeon and when it fell Chomsky said it was a "victory for socialism". Bakunin's quote of "Beating the people with the people's stick" is always used to describe Maxist-Leninists regimes by Chomsky. He believes you can only get true democracy through some application of anarchist inspired ideas on an economic level. For example, anarcho syndicalism. You can criticize lack of democracy in western democracy from that angle without equating it to Fascism or Bolshevism.

    Where Chomsky does say western lib democracies are equal to dictatorships is in relation to foriegn policy. You have to remember the guy is 80+ years old. He lived through the post war world. If you were outside the safety of a liberal democracy the west was a tyrant as far as how it interacted with you. It went round the world enforcing juntas and oppressing people. It ruled with force. Being killed by a South American USA backed general was no different than being killed executed by a Stasi.

    The only case I think you can make for Chomsky being reactionary is like how Hitches put it when describing Chomsky's views on Bosnia, Irag and Afghanistan. "Support for the underdog has lead to Chomsky supporting mad dogs". If that is true then that is still not reactionary. It is misplaced view that the west is only ever harmful and imperialistic in it's foriegn policy. It does not mean Chomsky supports Putin like the type of right winger you are ridiculing. It's also the red baiting trap of just because you don't agree with your own country means you must support the enemy. Even then. The Hictch still said Chomksy was correct pre 90s. That's a lot of his work.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    x
    1.) Dredging:
    https://www.fginsight.com/news/gover...-dredging-8755

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-farmers.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/l...mpossible.html

    2.) Fishing:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-fishing-rules
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1...ng-policy.html

    3.) Debt:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10381926.html

    4.) TTIP
    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_blasts_euro...n_crucial_vote

    5.) GM foods

    http://www.collective-evolution.com/...al-disruption/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...th-humans.html

    6.) Usury

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...land-austerity
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Utter rubbish. Tin hat brigaaaaaade
    I am just reporting on a Parliamentary Investigation:

    "The EU and Russia: before and beyond the crisis in Ukraine".
    "PHASE II: PRESIDENT YANUKOVYCH SUSPENDSSIGNATURE OF THE ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT—MAIDAN SQUARE PROTESTS

    185. In November 2013, President Yanukovych decidedto suspend the signature of the AA. The domestic economic situationhad become very pressing, partly due to Russia's restrictive trademeasures. EU Member States had committed to facilitating an InternationalMonetary Fund (IMF) loan in the region of $15 billion, but thiswas conditional on reforms which would have been difficult todeliver in the short term. On the other side, Russia offered Ukrainea $15 billion loan, without specific conditions, which was likelyto be accompanied by the lifting of Russian trade restrictionsand a large gas discount.[276]

    186. President Yanukovych's decision not to signthe AA triggered the protests now referred to as "the Maidan."These protests took both the EU and Russia by surprise. Eventshad begun to take on a momentum of their own which neither sidecould predict or control."

    The EU has the competence to lay down the conditions of entry and residence for third-country nationals entering and residing legally in one Member State for purposes of family reunification. Member States still retain the right to determine admission rates for people coming from third countries to seek work.
    The EU has competence for external borders - see
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...Serv.do?uri=OJ : L : 2006 : 105 : 0001 : 0032 : EN : PDF
    (you will need to delete the space around the colons - cause "smilies" in TSR)

    Especially Art (9) and (15) which describe what happened to create the refugee crisis.

    Pretty sure Greece did that to itself, and you talk as if it wouldn't have happened if the EU was not there.
    The Drachma would have fallen and the Greek economy would have adjusted.

    To my knowledge puppy farming is still law in England and Wales.
    And there are laws and organisations to control and monitor puppy farms in the UK that do not apply in the EU in general.

    Yes, because the EU is now, apparently, able to force other countries to do its bidding. The UK still has a very loud and independent voice worldwide, and Westminster failed to avoid the very same thing.
    The EU has effective control over UK foreign affairs and security since 2014 and the loss of the veto:

    Article 24 of the Treaty on European Union:

    "1. The Union’s competence in matters of common foreign and security policy shall cover all areas of foreign policy and all questions relating to the Union’s security, including the progressive framing of a common defence policy that might lead to a common defence"
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    ChaoticButterfly I haven't fully read your post (but I will do now) but on answer to your question:

    Stephen Pinker sums it up as Chomsky believes in the idea of the Noble Savage- that human nature is fundamentally good and is corrupted by society- which i think is quote reactionary
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    NO TO A EVER CLOSER UNION
    NO TO £55 MILLION A DAY
    NO TO OPEN BORDERS
    NO TO THE EU


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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    If the UK leaves it will have 100% influence on its own affairs, if it remains it will have 8.5%, it will be governed from elsewhere.
    No country in the world has 100% influence of its own affairs whether internal or external. Britain by itself can't stop Chinese steel imports that is closing down British steel works nor can it unilateral military action in Syria. Immigration is determined by the needs of business regardless of what the government or the electorate wants.

    Leaving the EU will be a symbolic gesture with no real political significance.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    No country in the world has 100% influence of its own affairs whether internal or external. Britain by itself can't stop Chinese steel imports that is closing down British steel works nor can it unilateral military action in Syria. Immigration is determined by the needs of business regardless of what the government or the electorate wants.

    Leaving the EU will be a symbolic gesture with no real political significance.
    Tariffs to stop the dumping of Chinese steel are an EU competence.
    Foreign Affairs and Security are now an EU competence - the vote on Syria was in response to a French request to the EU Council.
    about 50% of migration is due to EU Treaties

    Oh yes, the EU does exist! The Eurosceptics are not making it up. The EU project, since its earliest days, has operated on denial, just slipping through changes and blaming what happens on the member states if it goes wrong, then slipping through more changes. Senior figures in the European Movement have actually said that this is the way they operate - from Claude Monet to Jean-Claude Juncker.

    Your statement:

    "Leaving the EU will be a symbolic gesture with no real political significance."

    is a perfect example of European Movement politics - were you trained or did you just pick up the approach from their literature?
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    (Original post by Dumachi)
    So people want to stay because:

    1. They have destroyed the UK's manufacturing industry.
    2. They have flooded the UK with there anti dredging laws.
    3. They have destroyed the UK with mass immigration.
    4. They have bankrupt the UK by illegal usury debt.
    5. They have destroyed fishing with there Laws
    6. They are privatizing the NHS and destroying it with TTIP.
    7. They are forcing GM food on us because of TTIP despite great concerns on there safety. (USA is most unhealthy country in the world because of them)

    Excellent, cool.
    Liars, damn liars and Kippers
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Liars, damn liars and Kippers
    See post 146.
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    I really want us to leave the EU. Luckily, most recent polls are in favour of Brexit.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Liars, damn liars and Kippers
    Do you really want to take away the independence of your children and your children's children?

    Pro-EU are usually just racists of the second kind: people who want to destroy the diversity of nation states and homogenize us. What sort of racist are you?
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    (Original post by Dumachi)
    See post 146.
    Even Greece did have the Drachma and devalued it to increase exports. it would still be a basket case because the source of its problems is huge debts and a dysfunctional tax collection system coupled with a world recession.

    It is lucky it is in the EU so it could get loans, if not it would have defaulted and plunged the country into an even worse crisis than it is now.

    You forget Greeks can travel freely to other parts of the EU to find jobs, if they were not in the EU, they would be even worse off because they would have no right to work in other member states.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Do you really want to take away the independence of your children and your children's children?

    Pro-EU are usually just racists of the second kind: people who want to destroy the diversity of nation states and homogenize us. What sort of racist are you?
    I want my kids to be able to travel to other parts of the EU for education and work just like their cousin who works in Germany and don't have to deal with the sort of bureaucracy Kippers moan so much about.

    You really not making your arguments any better by calling people racists when its is not relevant. Get a grip.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    "A reactionary is a person who holds political views that favor a return to the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which they believe possessed characteristics (discipline, respect for authority, etc.) that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society."

    How on earth does that describe an anarchist like Chomsky? What is this "
    previous political state of society" Chomsky would like to go back to? Anarchist Catalonia? :laugh:

    Everything I've read surrounding Chomsky's views on the undemocratic nature of western liberal democracies is based around his thoeires of how real existing state capitalism work. His and Manufacturing Consent sociology is at the crux of this and it is all about how people are controlled in a society where technically everyone has rights, freedom of speech etc compared to brutal police states like the then Soviet Union that he described as a dungeon and when it fell Chomsky said it was a "victory for socialism". Bakunin's quote of "Beating the people with the people's stick" is always used to describe Maxist-Leninists regimes by Chomsky. He believes you can only get true democracy through some application of anarchist inspired ideas on an economic level. For example, anarcho syndicalism. You can criticize lack of democracy in western democracy from that angle without equating it to Fascism or Bolshevism.

    Where Chomsky does say western lib democracies are equal to dictatorships is in relation to foriegn policy. You have to remember the guy is 80+ years old. He lived through the post war world. If you were outside the safety of a liberal democracy the west was a tyrant as far as how it interacted with you. It went round the world enforcing juntas and oppressing people. It ruled with force. Being killed by a South American USA backed general was no different than being killed executed by a Stasi.

    The only case I think you can make for Chomsky being reactionary is like how Hitches put it when describing Chomsky's views on Bosnia, Irag and Afghanistan. "Support for the underdog has lead to Chomsky supporting mad dogs". If that is true then that is still not reactionary. It is misplaced view that the west is only ever harmful and imperialistic in it's foriegn policy. It does not mean Chomsky supports Putin like the type of right winger you are ridiculing. It's also the red baiting trap of just because you don't agree with your own country means you must support the enemy. Even then. The Hictch still said Chomksy was correct pre 90s. That's a lot of his work.
    I agree Pretty much with all you've just said Tbh. And to an extent with some of the stuff you sent me.

    I don't entirely blame the guy for having the views he does, but I do think he has been shall we say, a 'negative influence' and has turned many in the left to cynicism or outright relativism.
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    NO TO A EVER CLOSER UNION
    NO TO £55 MILLION A DAY
    NO TO OPEN BORDERS
    NO TO THE EU

    You should probably change your avatar if you feel like that
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    (Original post by Maker)
    I want my kids to be able to travel to other parts of the EU for education and work just like their cousin who works in Germany and don't have to deal with the sort of bureaucracy Kippers moan so much about.

    You really not making your arguments any better by calling people racists when its is not relevant. Get a grip.
    People will be able to get work permits as they have always done and Erasmus will continue.

    This racism point is actually very important. When I discuss the EU with pro-EU people the vast majority believe that the real advantage of the EU is to remove the barriers between us all so that there is "no need to fear each other". Now, I don't fear people for being different, I love it.

    I am not a "Kipper" however, it is obvious to me that you believe "kippers" are racists who only want their own people in the UK. Pro-EU people are the same for me, they are racists who want to "solve the problem of difference" by homogenization.

    I welcome diversity. I want it. I want diverse nation states with diverse cultures, arts and sports. I want competition between nations to try to achieve a better society and economics for their people. Britain has a diverse population, I want to see where we can go with this new thing. Diversity is the greatest thing that humanity has achieved and only cowards would want to destroy it out of fear.

    We should be seeking how to live peacefully together in diversity, not how to erase our differences! The EEC was an interesting experiment but the EU is a terrible mistake.
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