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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    Ontological arguments, cosmological arguments, certain design arguments (just ignore Paley he's dumb), counters to the problem of evil, a complete void of evidence for things that definitively disproves the existence of God.....

    People have tried much more than just going "Bible says so, sod off"


    Guess Imma have to copy and paste my previous post...


    TL;DR: to make the best most moral humans suffering HAS to exist and so does free will, otherwise they're not choosing the moral thing and so less moral. Ya feel?

    There's another one from a dude called Plantinga that adresses moral evil if you feel this one is somehow to your dissatisfaction...
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    How do people be so certain of their beliefs in this sort of thing when there's just so much stuff either side and nothing is definitive
    If God wants moral human beings why don't they make moral human beings? What is the point of teaching us to harm one another while preaching love and peace? I'm not saying Gid definitely doesn't exist but there is no doubt in my mind that the bible or any other religious book is his sole word, it's either completely fictional or has been seriously tampered with
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    Yes, I believe in Allah.
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    If God wants moral human beings why don't they make moral human beings?
    The point of that argument is that this is how he makes moral human beings. If he just made beings that were already moral and always did the right thing then they wouldn't be the most moral human being they could possibly be, as they're not making the choice to be moral, they're forced into it. If you made a robot that was programmed to always do the moral thing, people wouldn't say the robot was a moral being in of itself because it's just following programming. Same applies if one were to 'program' humans in such a way.

    I guess he's not trying to teach us to harm each other, but the option to cause harm has to be there in order to make the best possible people. Guess he's got hell for the write offs, if you believe in the whole heaven and hell thing....

    The rest I sort of agree with you on, God is a much easier concept to deal with if you detach the religious book rubbish from it.
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    The point of that argument is that this is how he makes moral human beings. If he just made beings that were already moral and always did the right thing then they wouldn't be the most moral human being they could possibly be, as they're not making the choice to be moral, they're forced into it. If you made a robot that was programmed to always do the moral thing, people wouldn't say the robot was a moral being in of itself because it's just following programming. Same applies if one were to 'program' humans in such a way.

    I guess he's not trying to teach us to harm each other, but the option to cause harm has to be there in order to make the best possible people. Guess he's got hell for the write offs, if you believe in the whole heaven and hell thing....

    The rest I sort of agree with you on, God is a much easier concept to deal with if you detach the religious book rubbish from it.
    I don't questions God's existence because of the existence of bad people in the world, I do believe that they would give us free will and there is always a choice to act in whatever way we want but a lot of the things that we are told to hate (LGBT people for example) don't make any sense in my eyes, I'm gay, I have never made the choice to be gay and while I may one day truly believe that God exists, I would believe that they made me this way and do not hate me or want others to hate me for something that doesn't hurt people and is not self inflicted
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    I believe organised religion is simply for mass control.
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    I don't questions God's existence because of the existence of bad people in the world, I do believe that they would give us free will and there is always a choice to act in whatever way we want but a lot of the things that we are told to hate (LGBT people for example) don't make any sense in my eyes, I'm gay, I have never made the choice to be gay and while I may one day truly believe that God exists, I would believe that they made me this way and do not hate me or want others to hate me for something that doesn't hurt people and is not self inflicted
    Mhm I've never found any real practical or rational reason for God to want people to not be gay/trans/etc.
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    (Original post by skwonc)
    I believe organised religion is simply for mass control.
    Organised religion =/= God
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    Oh God you're one of those ones that think they're the most intelligent people ever but don't even acknowledge that the Bible and other holy books aren't the only argument for God's existence. You're worse than the guy that throws random pointless words in front of his belief systems.
    Bruh... I'm taking the piss out of another guy... my comment is a meme
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    Organised religion =/= God
    I completely agree with this, religion is man made and those who use it to control or go to extremes do not necessarily reflect the intentions of God.
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    No. I decided to finally grow up.
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    (Original post by monk1324)
    Bruh... I'm taking the piss out of another guy... my comment is a meme
    **** I'm too normie for this
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    Completely.
    In my opinion, there is no other love like it. And despite the atheist's opinion of a lack of proof for God's existence, there is nothing in this world that I could even begin to believe more than I do in God.
    A lot of atheists talk about how there is no proof of God but how many atheists have actually taken the time to research God's existence by looking at both sides of the argument? Personally, my belief in God first came about when I was researching these arguments. It led me to discover that the universe and the conditions in which we live are simply too perfect. The probability of so many different aspects of the earth, the universe, and its makeup being this perfect is so next to none, its essentially impossible. I can't even begin to believe that all of this utter perfection is simply down to chance.

    In a more subjective way, living for Christ has given me a new purpose and a significantly happier outlook on life - its given me morality. If there is no God, then meaning, value and purpose are ultimately human illusions. If atheism is true, then life is really objectively meaningless, valueless and purposeless, despite our subjective beliefs to the contrary.

    This is what I believe. And you may think that believing in something like God is weak or naïve, but I don't agree. God loves each and every one of us, no matter how many times we screw up, and even if we distance ourselves from him. Simply praying to God and asking him to reveal his love will bring you so much closer to discovering the real answer to this question than you can even imagine. God's love is unconditional, and no argument is going to change my view on this subject

    John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"
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    Only God knows the answer to that question
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    [QUOTE=Retired_Messiah;62641853]Ontological arguments, cosmological arguments, certain design arguments (just ignore Paley he's dumb), counters to the problem of evil, a complete void of evidence for things that definitively disproves the existence of God.....

    People have tried much more than just going "Bible says so, sod off"


    Guess Imma have to copy and paste my previous post...


    TL;DR: to make the best most moral humans suffering HAS to exist and so does free will, otherwise they're not choosing the moral thing and so less moral. Ya feel?

    There's another one from a dude called Plantinga that adresses moral evil if you feel this one is somehow to your dissatisfaction...
    Spoiler:
    Show
    How do people be so certain of their beliefs in this sort of thing when there's just so much stuff either side and nothing is definitive
    Right, where to begin, where, to, begin.....

    The ontological argument is a joke, and asserts things which cannot be proven, otherwise there would be no need for faith.
    Cosmological arguments, this is an easy one because we know for certain that the big bang/cosmic inflation occurred. True, we do not have data from the very beginning of the big bang but we do have 1/1400th of a second (I believe) after the big bang. With no evidence outside of the bible to show the existence of a god. Furthermore, if god does not need to have a creator, then nor does the universe, therefore, as there is no evidence for god it is safe to assume that until such evidence appears we can disregard the notion of a god. Also if god was involved with the creation of the universe, then he made a right pigs ear of it. The universe is really hostile to life. Pulsars, alpha, beta and gamma radiation, black holes, bolides which can (and have) hit the earth without warning with the ability to wipe out thousands of species in a trice.
    Design.....errrr no. If you know ANYTHING about biology you would know this is a route that NO theist should take. After all irreducible complexity has been utterly destroyed as a concept, and one only has to look at something as simple but as important as RUBISCO (Ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate carboxylase/oxygenase) and when you see how inefficient it is, you have to ask yourself exactly how bad was this creator, you have the most important enzyme in biology and its pretty much useless. furthermore, what kind of god would put a play area next to a sewage plant?The problem of evil has been countered?? REALLY??? where. are there kids still going without food and water, women and kiddies being sexually assaulted, disease still rife on the planet. Either your god is totally ineffectual (nullifying his supposed omnipotence), or he does not care (nullifying his omnibenevolance). Either way it looks pretty bad for your god, if the supposed creator of the universe cannot stop little Angela's daddy touching her in that way that makes her cry, then he is repugnant!
    As for having to prove the non existence of god, sorry mate, that's your job. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence for gods existence. I'd not have to prove that I did not win the lottery last week but if I told you I had, you'd be within your right to ask for evidence, and if I could not produce it then you'd be entitled to call m a liar.

    Lastly, you do not need a god to be a decent human being. I am a good example. I will go out of my way for my friends, treat my wife as best as I possibly can, I care about other people enough to give blood, being on the bone marrow register. I am VERY pro gay, and women's rights and I aim to be a positive influence to the kids I will be teaching once I have qualified, and just believe that everyone should be treated equally. Something the bible is not. After all what kind of book tells women to shut up, and that the disabled are not worthy to go near god's altar? Funny how an atheist is more moral than some god isn't it, I'd never condemn homosexuals to death, or want to kill first born kids, or even wipe out humanity (save for a tiny handful of people) but according to the bible the Abrahamic god is guilty of all of these things and much, much worse.

    Free will is a cop out by the way. If god is omniscient then he knows every single action that each of us will make, which nullifies the notion of free will. if however he does not know what we are going to do, then he is not and cannot logically be omniscient, once more nullifying his omniscience
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    (Original post by THEOTHERGIRL7)
    Completely.
    In my opinion, there is no other love like it. And despite the atheist's opinion of a lack of proof for God's existence, there is nothing in this world that I could even begin to believe more than I do in God.
    A lot of atheists talk about how there is no proof of God but how many atheists have actually taken the time to research God's existence by looking at both sides of the argument? Personally, my belief in God first came about when I was researching these arguments. It led me to discover that the universe and the conditions in which we live are simply too perfect. The probability of so many different aspects of the earth, the universe, and its makeup being this perfect is so next to none, its essentially impossible. I can't even begin to believe that all of this utter perfection is simply down to chance.

    In a more subjective way, living for Christ has given me a new purpose and a significantly happier outlook on life - its given me morality. If there is no God, then meaning, value and purpose are ultimately human illusions. If atheism is true, then life is really objectively meaningless, valueless and purposeless, despite our subjective beliefs to the contrary.

    This is what I believe. And you may think that believing in something like God is weak or naïve, but I don't agree. God loves each and every one of us, no matter how many times we screw up, and even if we distance ourselves from him. Simply praying to God and asking him to reveal his love will bring you so much closer to discovering the real answer to this question than you can even imagine. God's love is unconditional, and no argument is going to change my view on this subject

    John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him"
    Really, god loves everyone does he, so why will I, despite being a good person, go to hell. To me the notion of god and his "love" is similar to that of "Stockholm Syndrome". Basically love me, or I will make sure you suffer for ever. I have researched both sides and found the god one basically academically flaccid, and guilty of lazy thinking. Or alternatively, if god loves everyone explain this passage against the disabled:

    Leviticus 21:18-23King James Version (KJV)
    18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
    19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
    20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
    21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
    22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
    23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.

    So god loves the disabled so much they are not worthy of god. Wow, that is so loving. As for conditions in the universe being to perfect for life, I take it you are not a science undergrad then, because if you where, you would not have used that line, because it is simply not true. In fact the universe is actually hostile to life, and if any life managed to get a foothold it would be remarkable.

    Also, if jesus existed (which is highly debatable) then he did not die. He was inconvenienced at best, meaning that the whole John 3:16 line is a joke.
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    (Original post by Hedgehog1)
    Right, where to begin, where, to, begin.....

    The ontological argument is a joke, and asserts things which cannot be proven,
    tbf yeah, I assumed you weren't this read up.

    Cosmological arguments, this is an easy one because we know for certain that the big bang/cosmic inflation occurred. True, we do not have data from the very beginning of the big bang but we do have 1/1400th of a second (I believe) after the big bang. With no evidence outside of the bible to show the existence of a god. Furthermore, if god does not need to have a creator, then nor does the universe, therefore, as there is no evidence for god it is safe to assume that until such evidence appears we can disregard the notion of a god. Also if god was involved with the creation of the universe, then he made a right pigs ear of it. The universe is really hostile to life. Pulsars, alpha, beta and gamma radiation, black holes, bolides which can (and have) hit the earth without warning with the ability to wipe out thousands of species in a trice.
    I mean first off, standard banter argument, surely you must've predicted this one, before big bang there was ????? hue. Big Bang is not explanation for it all yet, it potentially could be that Big Bang was the method God chose to go about making the universe, no? As for the creator argument, it could be argued that things usually get made by things that are greater than them. (I believe dawkins said such a thing when criticising some design argument or another...). With God being the greatest thing, nothing is better than him, thus no need for creator? Whereas God > universe, therefore God created the universe.

    Hostility to life and what you think about the job he did is irrelevant to whether he did the job or not.

    [QUOTE=Hedgehog1;62643871]
    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    Design.....errrr no. If you know ANYTHING about biology you would know this is a route that NO theist should take. After all irreducible complexity has been utterly destroyed as a concept, and one only has to look at something as simple but as important as RUBISCO (Ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate carboxylase/oxygenase) and when you see how inefficient it is, you have to ask yourself exactly how bad was this creator, you have the most important enzyme in biology and its pretty much useless.
    Mhm most of them are crap, but then you've got Swinburne who argued that scientific explanations of how the world worked explained nothing. Scientific laws only explain things in relation to other scientific laws. A rock falls because it has weight, which is caused by gravity, which is caused by planets and such. But for an explanation as to how the laws came to be in the first place, Swinburne decided that the simplest explanation was that it needed a personal explanation, ie a being with motivations that brought such scientific laws into existence.

    The problem of evil has been countered?? REALLY??? where.
    Did you even read the part where I said how? Please don't make me bring out Plantinga here I'll have to re-read it to refresh my memory and I cannot be bothered with that for the sake of a debate on the internet.
    [insert part where you waffle about being a good person and the Abrahamaic God being immoral here]
    All totally irrelevant, I swear I've said somewhere in this thread that you should detach God from the bible if you want anything that makes sense. Nowhere have I tried to claim that you needGod to be a good person. You do not. I am not doubting your morality here. Hell I haven't even claimed to be theistic myself smh

    (Original post by Hedgehog1)
    Free will is a cop out by the way. If god is omniscient then he knows every single action that each of us will make, which nullifies the notion of free will. if however he does not know what we are going to do, then he is not and cannot logically be omniscient, once more nullifying his omniscience
    If god is all powerful, there is no reason why he cannot use his power to limit his omniscience. If you take god to be all powerful, but only potentially omniscient (ie he has an off switch), then free will still holds. It's ludicrous to say that God cannot be omniscient, as if he's all powerful that would give him the power to both become all knowing, and become effectively a potato, at will. He could easily give himself blind spots if he wished to in order to fulfill a certain purpose. Regardless of this, you could still simply say that by not allowing people to at the very least believe they have a choice then you're unable to create the most moral people as I described. He creates people with the choice, knows what choices they're going to make immediately after doing so, but has succeeded in making a more moral person than what he would've done otherwise.
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    (Original post by Hedgehog1)
    Really, god loves everyone does he, so why will I, despite being a good person, go to hell. To me the notion of god and his "love" is similar to that of "Stockholm Syndrome". Basically love me, or I will make sure you suffer for ever. I have researched both sides and found the god one basically academically flaccid, and guilty of lazy thinking. Or alternatively, if god loves everyone explain this passage against the disabled:

    Leviticus 21:18-23King James Version (KJV)
    18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
    19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
    20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
    21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
    22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
    23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.

    So god loves the disabled so much they are not worthy of god. Wow, that is so loving. As for conditions in the universe being to perfect for life, I take it you are not a science undergrad then, because if you where, you would not have used that line, because it is simply not true. In fact the universe is actually hostile to life, and if any life managed to get a foothold it would be remarkable.

    Also, if jesus existed (which is highly debatable) then he did not die. He was inconvenienced at best, meaning that the whole John 3:16 line is a joke.

    First of all, my saying that God loves everyone is true. It's about whether a person chooses to accept that love and do something about it. It's not about being a 'good person' in general that will exempt you from hell, but the belief in God the creator. Hell is the ultimate price to pay for not accepting God, it's nothing to do with how good a person is based on human values.

    As to your Leviticus reference, these verses are entirely taken out of context. These things were addressed to the Aaronic priests in the old testament. The chapter as a whole clearly indicates this. So saying God doesn't love someone because of a disability based on these passages is inaccurate. Furthermore, throughout the bible, God is constantly seen to have shown love towards the people (such as the disabled) who were otherwise seen as outcasts at the time, thus proving how he sees them as just as worthy as you or I.

    Your argument that "the universe is actually hostile to life, and if any life managed to get a foothold it would be remarkable" just supports my argument, really. The fact that there is life in this universe despite these 'hostile' conditions is what makes it so amazing. If the conditions were to have been any different, life would not have been possible - despite the extreme odds against it, the universe was able to support life and you still believe it was just down to chance?

    The notion that Jesus' existence is highly debatable is another thing I cant agree with you on. The fact that Jesus did exist is something that any unbiased historian can agree on down to the sheer amount of documentation, with numerous reliable texts and eye witness accounts (from both in the bible and from outside sources).

    I realise how this has quickly escalated into a debate and so I'm going to end my comments with this response^.

    I'm not trying to enforce my beliefs upon anyone with my argument, I just can't even begin to understand how someone can live with the belief that there is no purpose. Thank you for your time.
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    (Original post by Hedgehog1)
    Really, god loves everyone does he, so why will I, despite being a good person, go to hell. To me the notion of god and his "love" is similar to that of "Stockholm Syndrome". Basically love me, or I will make sure you suffer for ever. I have researched both sides and found the god one basically academically flaccid, and guilty of lazy thinking. Or alternatively, if god loves everyone explain this passage against the disabled:

    Leviticus 21:18-23King James Version (KJV)
    18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
    19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
    20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
    21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
    22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
    23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.

    So god loves the disabled so much they are not worthy of god. Wow, that is so loving. As for conditions in the universe being to perfect for life, I take it you are not a science undergrad then, because if you where, you would not have used that line, because it is simply not true. In fact the universe is actually hostile to life, and if any life managed to get a foothold it would be remarkable.

    Also, if jesus existed (which is highly debatable) then he did not die. He was inconvenienced at best, meaning that the whole John 3:16 line is a joke.
    LOL its not debate, Jesus did exist and one of the absolute strongest facts is his crucifixion.



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    Also the argument that alludes to the problem of evil as proving God does not exist (the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent one anyway) by contradiction has failed. The gist is you cannot say that God existing and evil existing is a contradiction unless you can show God would have no morally justification in permitting evil. Also, we can think of possible scenarios that show evil and God exist.

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