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Universities "Prestige" Ranking

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Reply 180

Classic, Theodore.
Have you always been able to resit portions of your A-level to improve the grade?


No, module systems were kind of trialed in my years but in some cases you could resit and others you couldn't, mostly you couldn't and resitting was very unusual in subjects that you could (I think maths might have been a possibility). You could, however, resit the whole A-level if you wanted to - a far cry from the resitting of various parts at various times which seems commonplace now. At my old school out of a sixth form year of 120 over 50% achieved top grades in their exams last year, when I was there only around 20 boys achieved that standard - the school is no better than it was back then.

Reply 181

Isn't that at the heart of the problem, then?
It's becoming harder to do badly because you just resit bits you did badly in until you get a good grade.
There are certainly no resits in Advanced Higher exams and that's perhaps why the grade requirements are lower.
Having said that, I believe that the AH results are always getting better, year in year out.

Reply 182

ChemistBoy
No, module systems were kind of trialed in my years but in some cases you could resit and others you couldn't, mostly you couldn't and resitting was very unusual in subjects that you could (I think maths might have been a possibility). You could, however, resit the whole A-level if you wanted to - a far cry from the resitting of various parts at various times which seems commonplace now.


Yes I definitely agree with all that has been said. I'm not sure they are necessarily easier exams, but they are definitely easier to get an As in. Objectively, that's an observation which has to be made.

I think the clear way to sort this problem out is to make it mandatory to declare UMS marks on the UCAS form. There is a huge difference between a 240/480 A and a 285/570 A.

Also I'd introduce an A* to marks over 270/540. One can acheive the highest mark at the moment with a score of 480, or a score of 600! This is far too big a difference.

Reply 183

the_alba
That kind of thing is very disheartening. I understand why A-level students who work hard to achieve their top marks get annoyed when people say 'A-levels are getting easier'; I'm sure I'd be annoyed too. But when you look around you, objectively, and see more and more students getting top grades, and the record being broken year upon year, I think I would have to admit, even if I was still a sixth former stressing about meeting my university offers, that getting AAA is not as special an achievement as it should be, and used to be.

At the time I found A Levels to be an absolute nightmare, same I guess when I was sitting GCSEs. However, on starting university I realised just how different and difficult it was in comparisson.

Also, I'm wary of saying A Levels are getting easier. I wholeheartedly agree that A Level results get better year on year, but I don't think it's to do so mouch with intelligence as it is with preparation. Questions are largely the same or similar year on year and you could do pretty well from learning previous question.

In one English Lit module in particular, you were given the option oftwo questions, and for the 5 years or so previous to sitting the exam they had always been the same, based either on love or religion. When we got into the exam hall and turned over the paper there were audible gasps as people realised the questions were on love and nature. Having not prepared an adequate response to the love question I attempted the one on Nature and felt awful when I finished, everyone, included my own English teacher and head of dept, scoffed at me not taking 'the easy A'. As it turned out I was the only person in my class not to resit the module, got full marks actually. :smile:

I think we were too reliant on exam technique and practice rather than actuall knowledge and understanding. Ever year teachers have more past papers to their disposal and seeing how infrequently new tyes of questions come up you could take some exams with your eyes closed and still get a good result. I hate to use the phrase, but there is a lot of 'jumping through hoops' or 'Physics by numbers', I suppose synoptics are in place to counter that but one module out of six doesn't really seem enough.

Reply 184

PQ
Over that period A levels went from 2 3hr exam paper + coursework assessed at the end of 2 years to modular exams taken throughout 2 years with the option to retake modules to improve grades.

It's no soruprise that pass rates and A grades increased - if you're 2 marks off an A then you're obviously going to retake a module or two (in the past you wouldn't have known you were that close to the boundary or had the opportunity to resit), if you've failed the AS level of got a D or and E then chances are you aren't going to bother continuing with that subject to A2 (in the past you would only know that you were going to get a D, E, N or U after working towards an A level for 2 years).

Alevels pass rates pre and post curriculum 2000 cannot be compared - they're two completely different qualifications.


:ditto: In my opinion, it's not that the content of exams has got any easier, it's that the strucure (ie from linear to modular) has, combined with better resources. Either scrap modules and re-intrdouce the old system of exams and coursework after 2 years, or if you're going to keep modules, a) scrap/limit resits and as AdamTJ suggested b) introduce an A* grade at 90% and c) make declaring UMS marks compuslory. That's how you make A-levels harder and differentiate between candidates.

Reply 185

I think it would be best left with a distinct separation between AS and A2 Levels. I think it's easier to keep a track of your own progress then as well as beneficial for universities. It means you can keep your options open by taking 4 subjects and still have something to show for it if you drop down to 3 for full A Levels.

I think it was like that before wasn't it? You could do ASs but no one really did. Other than that I think it would probably be better left as it was previously. Not really sure how I feel about the A* for a Level though.

Reply 186

db

Also, I'm wary of saying A Levels are getting easier. I wholeheartedly agree that A Level results get better year on year, but I don't think it's to do so mouch with intelligence as it is with preparation. Questions are largely the same or similar year on year and you could do pretty well from learning previous question.


But why wasn't this the same when I sat my A-levels? We had past papers, questions seemed similar between years too. Such preparation techniques were widely used for revision back then too. Unless we were all just stupider or less prepared I can't see how to really justify that as a significant reason for grade inflation.


I think we were too reliant on exam technique and practice rather than actuall knowledge and understanding. Ever year teachers have more past papers to their disposal and seeing how infrequently new tyes of questions come up you could take some exams with your eyes closed and still get a good result. I hate to use the phrase, but there is a lot of 'jumping through hoops' or 'Physics by numbers', I suppose synoptics are in place to counter that but one module out of six doesn't really seem enough.


I think that was the case when I sat my A-levels too, obviously things have got much worse then. Like I said before I was quite amazed at the AEA physics paper I saw (from last year I think) with many questions that were not meant to test understanding but memory and those that did attempt to test understand seemed rather basic in comparison (one only required basic AS maths and the ability to read to be able to answer well.

Reply 187

db
I think it would be best left with a distinct separation between AS and A2 Levels. I think it's easier to keep a track of your own progress then as well as beneficial for universities. It means you can keep your options open by taking 4 subjects and still have something to show for it if you drop down to 3 for full A Levels.

I think it was like that before wasn't it? You could do ASs but no one really did. Other than that I think it would probably be better left as it was previously. Not really sure how I feel about the A* for a Level though.

I think they used to have the S Level or something, which was sort of like an extra thing you could do (like STEP for Maths).
Also I don´t believe A* for A Level is a good idea, if anything why not just raise the pre-exisiting grade boundaries as opposed to create a new grade altogether? Or you could raise the boundaries for the raw marks as opposed to the UMS boundaries?
It does seem pointless to have UMS grade boundaries though if all you look at is the grade.

Reply 188

paddy
I think they used to have the S Level or something, which was sort of like an extra thing you could do (like STEP for Maths).


The AEA replaced special papers in 2002.


Also I don´t believe A* for A Level is a good idea, if anything why not just raise the pre-exisiting grade boundaries as opposed to create a new grade altogether? Or you could raise the boundaries for the raw marks as opposed to the UMS boundaries?
It does seem pointless to have UMS grade boundaries though if all you look at is the grade.


The A* is an atrocious idea. As for scoring and grade boundaries all the present system does is muddy the waters.

Reply 189

ChemistBoy
But why wasn't this the same when I sat my A-levels? We had past papers, questions seemed similar between years too. Such preparation techniques were widely used for revision back then too. Unless we were all just stupider or less prepared I can't see how to really justify that as a significant reason for grade inflation.

I can't comment on the way A Levels were, because like you and PQ are saying, they were completely different pre 2000. Any combination of the modular system, the arrival of resits, changes in syllabus, exam techniques and repitition of questions can explain deviances in grades pre and post 2000.

I have been told that the style of questions, in Chemistry no less, changed quite significant between 2000 and now. Where before you would have been asked one question worth 15 you would know be asked 3-4 smaller questions to answer essentially the same question, but in steps. Mainly the quantative stuff I think and when we were given pre2000 exams questions it was stressed we wouldn't be asked that style anymore.

I guess top end material has slowly been phased out as well which doesn't make much of a difference over a year but explains huge jumps over longer peroids of time. I think a few years back Calculus was removed from the GCSE Maths and Ad Maths was shifted to AS over time.

Reply 190

Aren´t there plans to introduce special optional harder questions in A Levels? Stupid idea really, why do the harder question when you can do the easier one?
Also there´s a reason foreign people tend to be better than their age peers at maths, it´s because they´re way ahead of us in terms of what´s on the syllabus. When one of my friends first came to the UK from China he told us that the reason he always got 100% in tests was because he had been taught what we were covering 4/5 years previously. Same with my friends from other countries too.

Reply 191

a lot of countries (especially china) have a different education system. it is largely uncritical and fact based, so mathematical reasoning and remembering sequences off by heart is at the heart of all their subjects, not just maths.

Reply 192

paddy

Also there´s a reason foreign people tend to be better than their age peers at maths, it´s because they´re way ahead of us in terms of what´s on the syllabus. When one of my friends first came to the UK from China he told us that the reason he always got 100% in tests was because he had been taught what we were covering 4/5 years previously. Same with my friends from other countries too.


Actually in mathematics terms the chinese are much better at certain things and not so good at other things at aged 18. For example they do a lot of more advanced geometry instead of moving onto more complex calculus. Now, to me, unless you job is crystals, geometry is nowhere near as useful as calculus.

Reply 193

yeh i get that at my school all the cantonese do maths (i wont say chinese b/c those on mainland china dont seem to be worked as hard) they are amazing at pure. but they dont equate mechanics as maths more like physics our school try to stretch them by making them do decision and mechanics instead of a whole a level on pure. i was told how they get taught maths 4-5hrs a day with sooo much homework they are doing algebra when we were inyear 6!

Reply 194

i know loads of people from (mainland) china and the surrounding areas. a lot of them struggle when they come over to the uk because our university subjects are often philosophical, abstract and contestable - things which the chinese struggle with greatly. All the eastern students I know kick my ass when it comes to statistics though - im at the bottom of the class because im one of the only brits in the room with a background in a different research tradition.

Reply 195

db

I guess top end material has slowly been phased out as well which doesn't make much of a difference over a year but explains huge jumps over longer peroids of time. I think a few years back Calculus was removed from the GCSE Maths and Ad Maths was shifted to AS over time.


I used that example too - a solid instance of GCSEs and A-levels getting easier, where harder things like calculus are pushed back and back. Basic calculus isn't even that difficult (this is coming from someone who is crap at maths), but while it used to be studied at GCSE, now it is an AS subject.

I think the A* idea is rubbish, mainly because A-levels are so much about jumping through hoops, even in very subjective subjects like English, and ticking all the examiners' boxes does not equal academic excellence - it produces drones with methodical technique and no real capacity for independent thought. Unless the whole system of marking was overhauled so it credited critical acumen over making basic points about 'key themes', all an A* grade would produce is top universities full of students who don't have the skills and intellectual autonomy to write original, degree-level essays, as they only excel when they're being told what to write and, in my experience, those who do try to raise the critical bar get marked down for it - and so wouldn't get those precious A*s.

Reply 196

The Maths A-level has become shorter in the past four years.

Pre-2004, you had to study P1-P3, and three applied units.
Post-2004, you have to study C1-C4, and two applied units.

P1-P3 and C1-C4 cover exactly the same material, so they have effectively taken an entire module out of the A-level!

Reply 197

p1-p3 are part of the dfes p-levels and are targets for some of the most profoundly disabled children in the country.

Reply 198

theyre changing the A levels again next year! each subject will only have 4 modules over the 2 years(instead of the 6 at the moment). i dont know if that will mean easier A levels i got told it by my history teacher and she says it will definately make history easier...but i dont know how you could make math easier without having to do like a foundation course before you go to uni!

Reply 199

so they are just intending to dump 2 modules worth of content? Or are modules becoming worth more instead?

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