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Universities "Prestige" Ranking

Reply 100

Classic, Theodore.

I think that everyone seems to be microanalysing Universities, it's all a bit silly.
Every University has it's own strong points, find out which University is best for your subject and then go to that one. As long as you go to an older University (the 5 oldest in the country being St Andrews, Oxford, Cambridge, Glasgow and Aberdeen) then there's no need to really worry about the prestige of the University you attend.

Sorry but this is incredibly limiting. It should extend to at least the 1960s, when some of the top unis where created. Bath, Warwick, Loughborough (for engineering) etc etc.

Reply 101

ChemistBoy

16

AdamTJ

It's not unfounded bias, the big 5 in law are legitmately considered that way because they have the best departments, and probably always have. This is not to say Manchester isn't good, but considering their size they really should be better.

Well considering the favouring of candidates at these universities is also mixed up with favouring candidates from non-ethnic backgrounds and from higher socio-economic groups, it is rightly a cause for concern. However that is a debate for another time.

If you look again, Durham far smaller university, has 5* in almost all of the major social sciences/arts. Manchester, far larger, and with a far larger endowment has 5* in none. Underwhelming in my opinion.

A 5 is still very, very good (also there is at least one 5* in there), having seen what seperates 5 and 5* departments in my area I think it is mostly luck of the draw and perhaps having a nice entrance way. Manchester does now have a very strong leaning towards science and engineering it must be said (after all UMIST, a merger partner, had little if any social science research) and this does bias it somewhat.

They are also attracted because of the atmosphere, history and general prestige. It's a well known fact that not every department at Oxbridge is the best in the country, yet people still pick them over London/Durham/Bristol, because of this. Which is fair enough. But it would be folly to try and argue otherwise.

I think many people still believe that Oxbridge are the best places to study whatever subject, despite league tables or academic opinions. I don't deny that people do like that kind of atmosphere, but other people do not. I think that the vast amount of people who apply to oxbridge do so because of their perceptions that these are the best places to study in the UK primarly, not because of the architecture or size of the towns.

Reply 102

Oldmannow

18

i never heard anybody mention Glasgow and Aberdeen as "prestigious" universities in the same light as Bristol, Edinburgh, Oxbridge etc are considered...

Reply 103

the_alba

12

Glasgow is very prestigious for some things, and I caught it referring to itself as 'Ivy League' once, which is meaningless but still. Plus its Gothic arches make it look old and established (which it is), and seeing as a debate about prestige is so pointless and circuitous anyway, how a university looks often goes a long way to convincing people that it must be a great university.

Though in Glasgow's case, I believe it is very good. I almost went there for my Master's.

EDIT: Aberdeen, not so 'prestigious', no, but also with very good looks.

Reply 104

Oldmannow

18

yes they look good because they are ancient. i have never heard them be mentioned as a top place to study anything....and looking at various tables + course requirements....they dont seem to be really bothered about the quality of students (atleast thats what the grade requirements indicate)...

Reply 105

db

17

Grade requirements don't really mean much more than being an indicator as to the popularity of the course/univ, that's probably becoming more and more true with 'widening particpation' schemes becoming more prevalent.

Reply 106

ChemistBoy

16

abrp

yes they look good because they are ancient. i have never heard them be mentioned as a top place to study anything....and looking at various tables + course requirements....they dont seem to be really bothered about the quality of students (atleast thats what the grade requirements indicate)...

Remember that Scottish Universities start at a slightly lower level than English ones, thus for courses or institutions that aren't oversubscribed A-level grades are often lower than one would expect from England. This doesn't mean the courses aren't good. In Scotland at least Glasgow and Aberdeen are very well respected institutions, it is just that they aren't as popular with the public school set as St Andrews or Edinburgh so their fame south of the border is somewhat less.

Edit: To add fuel to the fire a little birdie has just told me the average earning stats (first job) for law grads from Manchester and Durham - both are suprisingly low in my opinion:

Manchester: 16,225 pa
Durham: 14,000 pa

Hmm, rather interesting, seems that either the pay for city law is crap or that Durham produces more shelf-stackers than Manchester.

AdamTJ - looks like all that 'research' you did might have been a bit misdirected.

Reply 107

hermaphrodite

15

Glasgow and Aberdeen are prestigious; they are amongst the four of the Ancient Uni's in Scotland. Edinburgh and St Andrews being the other two.

This is just my opinion; but I just think people living in England are patriotic towards English Universities; and label some Scottish Uni's as inferior (I'm from England btw)

Glasgow and Aberdeen are much older than all the Uni's in England; bar Oxbridge. Glasgow and Aberdeen are older than Durham, London and the Red Bricks.

if we had two Uni's of the same age as Glasgow and Aberdeen in England; then people would be comparing them to Oxford and Cambridge (could be wrong about the last sentence)

I personally think Glasgow is often underrated

Reply 108

AdamTJ

12

ChemistBoy

Remember that Scottish Universities start at a slightly lower level than English ones, thus for courses or institutions that aren't oversubscribed A-level grades are often lower than one would expect from England. This doesn't mean the courses aren't good. In Scotland at least Glasgow and Aberdeen are very well respected institutions, it is just that they aren't as popular with the public school set as St Andrews or Edinburgh so their fame south of the border is somewhat less.

Edit: To add fuel to the fire a little birdie has just told me the average earning stats (first job) for law grads from Manchester and Durham - both are suprisingly low in my opinion:

Manchester: 16,225 pa
Durham: 14,000 pa

Hmm, rather interesting, seems that either the pay for city law is crap or that Durham produces more shelf-stackers than Manchester.

AdamTJ - looks like all that 'research' you did might have been a bit misdirected.

Haha, I wonder who this birdie was...I might hazard a guess. In any case please source it.

I don't believe that. I earn considerably more than both those sums now. And I don't even have a degree yet.

I can speculate however, that a significantly larger percentage of people try and go into the Bar from Durham, which is much more competitive. Thus it takes a while to actually get pupillage which means they work at lower level jobs (such as paralegaling) than Manchester grads, who, because they only harbour ambitions of becoming solicitors, go on to get TCs straight away.

Reply 109

ChemistBoy

16

AdamTJ

Haha, I wonder who this birdie was...I might hazard a guess. In any case please source it.

HESA.

I don't believe that. I earn considerably more than both those sums now. And I don't even have a degree yet.

Well it is HESA data, more reliable than anything else out there.

I can speculate however, that a significantly larger percentage of people try and go into the Bar from Durham, which is much more competitive. Thus it takes a while to actually get pupillage which means they work at lower level jobs (such as paralegaling) than Manchester grads, who, because they only harbour ambitions of becoming solicitors, go on to get TCs straight away.

mmm, sounds like an excuse to me...

Reply 110

AdamTJ

12

ChemistBoy

HESA.

Well it is HESA data, more reliable than anything else out there.

mmm, sounds like an excuse to me...

Ye ye, in any case, according to the Guardian Bradford graduates earn more than Cambridge ones do in the first year out. In the long term...

Reply 111

fais

15

AdamTJ

Ye ye, in any case, according to the Guardian Bradford graduates earn more than Cambridge ones do in the first year out. In the long term...

Wrt graduate statistics: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) >> Guardian.

Reply 112

The Boosh

17

im not being funny here, but why is durham prestigious? i just dont get it. prestige, as i understand the term, is applied to something which is highly desirable and difficult to obtain. how can a university be prestigious, with 13,000+ students, which change each year? we have prestigious prizes, but a prestigious university? i think the term is abused in very pretentious way. given that durham's stats are matched by many universities (in terms of its research and teaching scores), in what way is durham prestigious?

Reply 113

national

11

abrp

i never heard anybody mention Glasgow and Aberdeen as "prestigious" universities in the same light as Bristol, Edinburgh, Oxbridge etc are considered...

That's because you're English my dear.
You don't talk about them in the same bracket as Oxbridge is because they're in Scotland.
I shall stop there or I'll start spouting abuse.

You probably didn't know this but Glasgow is the 4th oldest University in the country and Aberdeen the 5th.
Aberdeen is also the oldest medical school in the English-speaking world.
Glasgow was voted into the top 100 Universities in the world.
Aberdeen received the highest rating possible in recent executive inspections for its Law department.

Reply 114

national

11

Scuttle

Sorry but this is incredibly limiting. It should extend to at least the 1960s, when some of the top unis where created. Bath, Warwick, Loughborough (for engineering) etc etc.

Yes, well we're talking about prestige.
Former Polytechnic colleges aren't exactly prestigious (not saying that Bath etc were Polytechnic colleges.)

Think is, all you English people talk about prestigious Unis but you've no idea about Universities in Scotland.
Really, this topic should be changed to most prestigious Unis in England.
Of course, some of you have shoved Edinburgh in there for good measure, but really, you're overlooking an entire nation and its higher education system.

Reply 115

The Boosh

17

^^^ i wont get into a dispute whether the Scotland is a seperate nation, but I agree with you about Scotland's education system - it's recognised as being outstanding, especially its HE.

Reply 116

xkatb15x

The Boosh

im not being funny here, but why is durham prestigious? i just dont get it. prestige, as i understand the term, is applied to something which is highly desirable and difficult to obtain. how can a university be prestigious, with 13,000+ students, which change each year? we have prestigious prizes, but a prestigious university? i think the term is abused in very pretentious way. given that durham's stats are matched by many universities (in terms of its research and teaching scores), in what way is durham prestigious?

your saying prestige is given to something that is hard to obtain. therefore the list would be cambridge,oxford...durham,st andrews cant be bothered to look it up,but i was amazed at where i saw durham in the league tables how many ucas points you need to get in therefore doesnt it mean its hard to get in therefore its prestigious by your own reasoning.

Reply 117

AdamTJ

12

The Boosh

im not being funny here, but why is durham prestigious? i just dont get it. prestige, as i understand the term, is applied to something which is highly desirable and difficult to obtain. how can a university be prestigious, with 13,000+ students, which change each year? we have prestigious prizes, but a prestigious university? i think the term is abused in very pretentious way. given that durham's stats are matched by many universities (in terms of its research and teaching scores), in what way is durham prestigious?

For a number of factors:

It's traditionally seen as the best university outside of Oxbridge. Though this is not true anymore today, it still retains some of that original "glamour" if you like.

Because of this, the fact it is collegiate, and offers a similarish atmosphere to Oxbridge it attracts a lot of very very good candidates, most of whom would be good enough on paper to go to Oxbridge.

As a result of this, it is difficult to get into.

Hence, it is still prestigious. I won't deny I was proud to get into Durham, whereas I wouldn't have necessarily been that proud to get into a decent red-brick. The entrance requirements are generally quite a big higher. It's simply much harder to get into Durham than it is Birmingham or some other comparable institution.

I should add, it's consistently in the top 5 for most of the "big" subjects. Hence it actually compares rather favourably to most institutions I'm afraid. I refer you, like ChemistBoy, to the clean sweep of 5*s it enjoys in the social sciences/arts except for economics. This would suggest that actually the teaching/research is better than the large majority of places.

From the evidence I've seen, it appears to me the Durham overrated line is a bit of a myth.

Reply 118

Oldmannow

18

Classic, Theodore.

That's because you're English my dear.
You don't talk about them in the same bracket as Oxbridge is because they're in Scotland.
I shall stop there or I'll start spouting abuse.

You probably didn't know this but Glasgow is the 4th oldest University in the country and Aberdeen the 5th.
Aberdeen is also the oldest medical school in the English-speaking world.
Glasgow was voted into the top 100 Universities in the world.
Aberdeen received the highest rating possible in recent executive inspections for its Law department.

Firstly...dont patronise me...dear?
Secondly...i am not English. I am from the Soviet Union ( :p:

).

in regards to your points:

1) Edinburgh and St.Andrews are in Scotland yet they are often talked about in the same bracket as Oxbridge (or the one "just below)...so..

2) actually i do know this...some people do research this stuff and yes i did know that after Oxbridge, Scotland had the oldest Unis.

3) does that make it "good"/"better"? or even more so...prestigious? i go to a school where many applied for Medicine...none applied to Aberdeen (or Scotland in general IIRC)...and i havent seen many top Medical students on this forum whos first choice is Aberdeen (infact i dont think ive seen any...but im sure there are a couple).

4) so was Sheffield, Bristol,Warwick, Durham, Nottingham, LSE, UCL, Oxbridge, Edinburgh, Manchester, KCL, SOAS,Birmingham,Queen Mary. at that the top100 stop. your precious Aberdeen is then ranked 195...with : Sussex, St.Andrews, Leeds, reading, Bath,Southhampton,Cardiff, Liverpool and Newcastle all being ranked above it (as well as the Unis mentioned in the first paragraph)....so...does this reduce your points validity? or are all of these unis v.prestigious etc?

5) im sure most top Universities get top ratings for many of its departments...your point being?

maybe Glasgow and Aberdeen are seen as prestigious in Scotland...along with Edinburgh and St.Andrews...but apart from the fancy architecture (which can be obtained at other unis) they have little appeal to the UK students to say the least.

Reply 119

The Boosh

17

xkatb15x

your saying prestige is given to something that is hard to obtain. therefore the list would be cambridge,oxford...durham,st andrews cant be bothered to look it up,but i was amazed at where i saw durham in the league tables how many ucas points you need to get in therefore doesnt it mean its hard to get in therefore its prestigious by your own reasoning.

I'm at Exeter, and the typical offer is AAA-AAB, but I wouldn't call Exeter prestigious, despite the fact that I'm in the best department in the UK for what I'm doing.

Universities "Prestige" Ranking

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