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Should junior doctors continue to strike? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Should junior doctors continue to strike?
    Yes, until they get the deal they want
    157
    68.26%
    No, they need to compromise
    73
    31.74%

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Striking workers and unions have a variety of legal protections that allow them to persist in acting as an oligopoly in the labour market.
    Donyou believe you should be able to use your labour as a tool for negotiating better working conditions?
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    Donyou believe you should be able to use your labour as a tool for negotiating better working conditions?
    I have no objection to collective bargaining nor threatening to quit your job but persistent striking is something i abhor. Unions are exempt from numerous torts of law and strikers cannot be sacked.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The thing is the new contract itself is dangerous to patients as doctors will never get any rest.
    Good point, to be fair there are many issues with the NHS posing a risk to patients at the moment - not good s:
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    Please introduce me to any NHS Doctor who only works Monday-Friday 9-5. I think you'll find it quite an impossible task.
    Doctors already do work on a rota, one that involves long days, evenings, weekends and nights.
    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    Are you claiming doctors don't work outside of 9-5pm?
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    They don't work 9-5.

    Supermarket staff should be paid more for working unsociable hours. Why do you want a race to the bottom? Maybe supermarket staff should unionist and strike so they can be paid more for working weekends etc,.
    I'm saying it's inherent that doctors will need to work outside of 9-5pm and therefore pay should be more equal across the board (i.e. Saturday day time should not attract a high premium that the BMA are demanding.

    Supermarket staff are in the unlucky position that they know they can be replaced and therefore can't strike to get whatever they demand. It's the only reason the junior doctors are able to carry on like this. Most of the private sector have had to deal with crap hands dealt by employees.

    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    It's a fair enough point, but as stated, the net result will be that everyone will just want weekends off, so they'll have to rotate, the current system in place rewards the people who work the awful hours. It will also target specialties such as ED which already have shortages, and encourage over-application for "nicer" specialties with less anti-social hours. Although I follow the logic, it won't address IMO the problems.
    Imo once the mentality shifts, the problem will reduce over time. So long as Saturday daytime is classed as anti-social hours, it will always be a sticking point. Once it becomes the norm that it is seen as normal working hours, it won't be seen as such a big issue in say 20 years time.
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    scrotgrot Quantex I don't see what the problem is. The simple solution is to continue recruiting doctors from Romania, Bulgaria and elsewhere. They need the money and they're willing to work longer hours without complaining. Whether they
    • can speak & write in English and possess an acceptable proficiency standard is secondary.
    • posses genuine medical qualifications is besides the point.
    • have high medical training standards is irrelevant.
    What is important to Hunt and the largely clueless public is that when we enter the hospitals, we must be able to see people walking around with stethoscopes hung around their necks. That is all.

    Zerforax I don't think you understand. The BBC is part of 'the state'. It churns out the Tory party line. BBC's local news is heavily skewed towards the current government.

    (Original post by elliemayl)
    Good point, to be fair there are many issues with the NHS posing a risk to patients at the moment - not good s:
    Was this one of the 'many issues with the NHS posing a risk to patients'?
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/t...eirion-thomas/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ns-handed-122m
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ised-the-alarm
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...Raj-Mattu.html

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    (Original post by JC.)
    I take you're only ill on week days then? :rolleyes:
    Have you been ill at a weekend and found there's nobody to help you?

    You're buying the government's line that doctors don't work weekends and the new contract is needed to provide seven day cover.

    If the ultimate goal is a seven day NHS with clinics and elective procedures running at the weekends, then you need to invest in the training and recruitment of all areas (health professionals, support staff, admin staff, portering, housekeeping, etc), not just focus on doctors.

    I think everyone who works in the NHS understands how the demands on services mean a seven day working week will eventually be necessary, but they're going about it in totally the wrong way.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    I'm saying it's inherent that doctors will need to work outside of 9-5pm and therefore pay should be more equal across the board (i.e. Saturday day time should not attract a high premium that the BMA are demanding.

    Supermarket staff are in the unlucky position that they know they can be replaced and therefore can't strike to get whatever they demand. It's the only reason the junior doctors are able to carry on like this. Most of the private sector have had to deal with crap hands dealt by employees.



    Imo once the mentality shifts, the problem will reduce over time. So long as Saturday daytime is classed as anti-social hours, it will always be a sticking point. Once it becomes the norm that it is seen as normal working hours, it won't be seen as such a big issue in say 20 years time.
    But supermarket staff can swap shifts
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    (Original post by Audrey18)
    scrotgrot Quantex I don't see what the problem is. The simple solution is to continue recruiting doctors from Romania, Bulgaria and elsewhere. They need the money and they're willing to work longer hours without complaining. Whether they
    • can speak & write in English and possess an acceptable proficiency standard is secondary.
    • posses genuine medical qualifications is besides the point.
    • have high medical training standards is irrelevant.
    What is important to Hunt and the largely clueless public is that when we enter the hospitals, we must be able to see people walking around with stethoscopes hung around their necks. That is all.

    Zerforax I don't think you understand. The BBC is part of 'the state'. It churns out the Tory party line. BBC's local news is heavily skewed towards the current government.



    Was this one of the 'many issues with the NHS posing a risk to patients'?
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/t...eirion-thomas/
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ns-handed-122m
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ised-the-alarm
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...Raj-Mattu.html

    They want more of the doctors recruited from abroad, the ones whos qualifications are questionable and who mistake ankles for elbows.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    I'm saying it's inherent that doctors will need to work outside of 9-5pm and therefore pay should be more equal across the board (i.e. Saturday day time should not attract a high premium that the BMA are demanding.

    Supermarket staff are in the unlucky position that they know they can be replaced and therefore can't strike to get whatever they demand. It's the only reason the junior doctors are able to carry on like this. Most of the private sector have had to deal with crap hands dealt by employees.



    Imo once the mentality shifts, the problem will reduce over time. So long as Saturday daytime is classed as anti-social hours, it will always be a sticking point. Once it becomes the norm that it is seen as normal working hours, it won't be seen as such a big issue in say 20 years time.
    Also, just out of interest, shouldn't this then apply to politicians, housing associations, or even more relevant, radiographers etc.? Too? Why is it that because one profession does x every other profession has to race it to the bottom? Why is it such a big sticking point for yourself?
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    definitely yes !!!
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Could you give some background/links to the NHSE and the BMA? I honestly don't know anything about it.

    Well personally it feels like junior doctors are trying to hide behind safeguards but really only care about their money.

    Society has moved on (with technology, transport etc) where everything is always available. MPs don't really work since they all need to be together to debate issues.

    Doctors, on an individual level, (I do note they need other support from staff and equipment etc) don't need each other to do their job. Patients and illness do not work 9-5pm. There are plenty of other jobs who have shifted outside of 9-5pm schedules:

    - supermarket staff can be made to work 24 hours all week (except Sunday evening/night)
    - customer support staff have been pushed into working Saturdays
    - retail staff at shopping centres have been pushed into working later evenings and Saturdays
    - restaurant/bar staff work late on Friday and Saturdays

    So it's fine for those people to lose time with their families because they have no choice or can't afford not to work those unsocial hours but it's unfair for junior doctors to work on a rota?
    How on earth can you compare supermarket staff with junior doctors? They are completely different professions! Being a doctor is much more challenging than stocking shelves at a shop, it is also a very stressful job.
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    (Original post by seaholme)
    Antisocial hours make up 30-40% of pay currently. Getting rid of 30-40% and replacing it with an 11% 'rise' is a significant net pay cut. Say what you like, but if you think any kind of pay boost is happening, your facts are so far out I don't know what to say. Pay is going down under the new contract.
    So ****ing what. The priority should be patients not their pay packet. So many others work anti social hours, and they don't moan.

    Glad it's been implemented, if they don't like it the ******** doctors will leave, and we'll have those that are there for the job, we'll bring in more worthy doctors from abroad who'll be so much more appreciative
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    So ****ing what. The priority should be patients not their pay packet. So many others work anti social hours, and they don't moan.

    Glad it's been implemented, if they don't like it the ******** doctors will leave, and we'll have those that are there for the job, we'll bring in more worthy doctors from abroad who'll be so much more appreciative
    If the priority really was patients they'd have reduced working hours and therefore, pay of junior doctors and simply hired more to fill the "weekend void."

    But look where we are.
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    So ****ing what. The priority should be patients not their pay packet. So many others work anti social hours, and they don't moan.

    Glad it's been implemented, if they don't like it the ******** doctors will leave, and we'll have those that are there for the job, we'll bring in more worthy doctors from abroad who'll be so much more appreciative
    You obviously dont appreciate the nhs and its doctors!

    there are no such 'worthy doctors' to be brought in, they'll most likely be uneducated doctors from european countries. At least our doctors are good at their jobs
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    So ****ing what. The priority should be patients not their pay packet. So many others work anti social hours, and they don't moan.

    Glad it's been implemented, if they don't like it the ******** doctors will leave, and we'll have those that are there for the job, we'll bring in more worthy doctors from abroad who'll be so much more appreciative
    Doctors are still humans. They still want to be able to see their loved ones, afford to buy food and shelter and look after their own health. Of course they prioritise patients at work and work ****ing hard to give good care but they have limits like everyone else.

    I don't see why people expect those people who work in 'vocations' don't have the same needs and wants as everybody else.



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    Government needs to drop the 24/7 NHS BS, stop dictating, and focus on what's healthy (from public health and economic perspectives) all round
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Government needs to drop the 24/7 NHS BS, stop dictating, and focus on what's healthy (from public health and economic perspectives) all round
    Of course, people are only allowed to get sick 9-5. Great idea
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    (Original post by JC.)
    No.
    Plenty of other folk work weekends. what makes them special?
    ****, have I been going to work on weekends by accident this entire time? Whoops!

    (Original post by sw651)
    Of course, people are only allowed to get sick 9-5. Great idea
    Do you really want to have a toenail operation at 2am on a Sunday morning? Keep in mind that A&E has ambulances backed up and I'm having to see patients in corridors because the hospital is in a state of MINUS beds. Is this REALLY what you want in a health service? I'm sure you've got better things to be doing, and I certainly have better things to be doing on a sunday night, ya know like, providing emergency care.
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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    ****, have I been going to work on weekends by accident this entire time? Whoops!



    Do you really want to have a toenail operation at 2am on a Sunday morning? Keep in mind that A&E has ambulances backed up and I'm having to see patients in corridors because the hospital is in a state of MINUS beds. Is this REALLY what you want in a health service? I'm sure you've got better things to be doing, and I certainly have better things to be doing on a sunday night, ya know like, providing emergency care.
    I'd rather that than be placed on a waiting list for three months and then be told that I "don't qualify" for NHS treatment.
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    (Original post by sw651)
    Of course, people are only allowed to get sick 9-5. Great idea
    Does not compute (see existing services for reference)
 
 
 
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