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The Meaning of "Ever Closer Union" Watch

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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    ..
    I don't disagree with the treaties I just don't think you understand what they are actually saying.
    Here is a very clear paragraph:
    "2. When the Treaties confer on the Union a competence shared with theMember States in a specific area, the Union and the Member States may legislate and adopt legally binding acts in that area. The Member States shall exercise their competence to the extent that the Union has not exercised its competence. The Member States shall exercise their competence again to the extent that the Union has decided to cease exercising its competence."

    You accuse me of not understanding "The Member States shall exercise their competence to the extent that the Union has not exercised its competence."

    Its obvious: the EU can exercise its competence over shared competences when it sees fit.

    Please explain why this does not apply, quoting the treaties (there is a link in the OP). Just saying that something doesn't apply or wont happen or demanding evidence to bolster your own point rather than supplying it yourself and saying that I don't understand do not constitute an argument.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Who is to say? The Saudis would maintain that we are simply spawn of the devil! Before you say that that would prove they are crazy reflect on the fact that such a reply would indicate that you have special access to philosophical truth that the Saudis do not share.

    The N.Koreans started out as a Chinese backed group of people who were spreading International Socialism. They thought that they were at the beginning of a move to global socialist government.

    As the Eurozone progresses it is exaggerating the differences between north and south and is leading to very low growth. They are not far off fiscal union.

    Whilst your agenda is dominant you are in favour of global domination but over the decades another agenda will arise - it always does - and the world will be crushed.
    Who said high tariffs? If the UK paid WTO level tariffs on all its trade it would only pay £7.4 billion.
    My point was that financial transactions had been globalized so that the USA was unable to exercise its sovereign power.
    Countries and cultures have different conceptions of "best". Again you are suggesting access to perfect judgement.
    With global government even regional issues will be ignored, let alone national issues.
    We largely live in "my" world. It is moving towards your world that is causing grief. You dont seem to understand that the 80 or so people that own much of the world are the ones who truly favour megastates such as the EU and global government.

    I will try and address your points in three main segments.

    Perfect judgement

    Of course, no one has perfect judgement. But there are certainly better ways of living than others. Are you familiar with Rawls Veil of Ignorance? Its a somewhat clumsy device but it works for these purposes; in order to live in a remotely fair and rational society a basic means of material wealth should be available to all and core needs (Food, shelter, drinking water) should be given as well as equality of the sexes and freedom from 'divine judgement- re secularism. As for government- I like the idea of mixed governments with the EU being a good example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_government

    Additionally, whilst science teaches us that we can never be 100% certain about anything we can know through evidence what is the most plausible theory and so we can understand that things like say FGM universally harmful independent of morality which is dependent on the relativity that you subscribe to.


    The wealthy corporates don't want world government- they want world free trade and open borders, not quite the same thing. Theyre also going to dependent on states to bail them out wheras a world government in theory would be able to provide most basic necessities,

    the change to my world

    Change is very often painful but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary- case in point, the Enlightenment era- hugely bloody and painful transition to our current set up of 'nation-states' from the ruins of kingdoms and empires. The transition from Nation States to regional powers or 'blocs' will be just as painful, but neccessary in human development.

    The way I see it is if my 'world government' which say arises in 300 years or so does become corrupt- if it is overthrown humanity will be in my view completely free for the the first time in its existence. wheras we would never escape from a world of a hundred lesser tyrannies.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I will try and address your points in three main segments.

    Perfect judgement

    Of course, no one has perfect judgement. But there are certainly better ways of living than others. Are you familiar with Rawls Veil of Ignorance? Its a somewhat clumsy device but it works for these purposes; in order to live in a remotely fair and rational society a basic means of material wealth should be available to all and core needs (Food, shelter, drinking water) should be given as well as equality of the sexes and freedom from 'divine judgement- re secularism. As for government- I like the idea of mixed governments with the EU being a good example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_government

    Additionally, whilst science teaches us that we can never be 100% certain about anything we can know through evidence what is the most plausible theory and so we can understand that things like say FGM universally harmful independent of morality which is dependent on the relativity that you subscribe to.


    The wealthy corporates don't want world government- they want world free trade and open borders, not quite the same thing. Theyre also going to dependent on states to bail them out wheras a world government in theory would be able to provide most basic necessities,

    the change to my world

    Change is very often painful but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary- case in point, the Enlightenment era- hugely bloody and painful transition to our current set up of 'nation-states' from the ruins of kingdoms and empires. The transition from Nation States to regional powers or 'blocs' will be just as painful, but neccessary in human development.

    The way I see it is if my 'world government' which say arises in 300 years or so does become corrupt- if it is overthrown humanity will be in my view completely free for the the first time in its existence. wheras we would never escape from a world of a hundred lesser tyrannies.
    You are looking at these problems solely from your own desires and training.

    Certainly an AI of the future, that works purely rationally and is programmed to maximise "well-being" using the measures of well-being applied by a vet would agree with what you have written. But it is our diversity that is mankind's greatest achievement. The vet focusses on illness, death, fattening, fox attack etc., the human focusses on architecture, art, landscape, music, jewellery, fashion, philosophy, science and all the great achievements of humanity. Government is not solely about avoidance of suffering it is much more about fostering and rejoicing in growth and variety.

    It is characteristic of Romans, Han, post revolutionary French and Pan Europa that they all believed that their idea of what it is to be human was the only possible idea. All countries absorbed by their empires were rationalised according to their idea of well being. An imperial insanity seems to sweep across mankind every few generations - perhaps after the wars of the last imperial venture have been forgotten. It is now 2-3 generations since WWII.

    On the subject of multinational corporates, they are the ones who are always lobbying for the removal of barriers, they are behind TTIP and EU corporates have bent the EU to their desires.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    You are looking at these problems solely from your own desires and training.

    Certainly an AI of the future, that works purely rationally and is programmed to maximise "well-being" using the measures of well-being applied by a vet would agree with what you have written. But it is our diversity that is mankind's greatest achievement. The vet focusses on illness, death, fattening, fox attack etc., the human focusses on architecture, art, landscape, music, jewellery, fashion, philosophy, science and all the great achievements of humanity. Government is not solely about avoidance of suffering it is much more about fostering and rejoicing in growth and variety.

    It is characteristic of Romans, Han, post revolutionary French and Pan Europa that they all believed that their idea of what it is to be human was the only possible idea. All countries absorbed by their empires were rationalised according to their idea of well being. An imperial insanity seems to sweep across mankind every few generations - perhaps after the wars of the last imperial venture have been forgotten. It is now 2-3 generations since WWII.

    On the subject of multinational corporates, they are the ones who are always lobbying for the removal of barriers, they are behind TTIP and EU corporates have bent the EU to their desires.
    I like our chats and I certainly get where you are coming from- nonetheless I still profoundly disagree with your line of thinking! :P

    If we were to live in a post state society- that has never really existed before now I do not think that people will stop imagining or that creativity and originality will die out- far from it. In may ways you and I have (presumably) been raised and brought up in the same society with our basic needs met- yet our discussions show that we are certainly very un alike in our own different ways. Every human being is naturally unique and nothing will ever change that.

    Whilst we are subject to the material forces which determine us we can never truly be free and these cannot be addressed in isolated bubbles. The role of the state is very clear- it is about protecting us from within and without, (EG a monopoly on violence) in order for this to be perpetuated antagonisms must necessarily be cultivated for it existence to be justified. Evidence-based ideas that are to the benefit of humanity as a whole should be promoted peacefully and democratically when possible and that is where the global trend is taking us.


    These barriers and TTIP can be negotiated outside the EU (But we would get a worse deal for the public) and indeed before they saw it as a propoganda tool it was UKIP policy to adopt it. Sure the NeoLiberal model is dominant in the EU- I would say it is even more prevalent in the UK. This trend is bigger than any nation state and can only be tackled at a regional level and that is one of the many reasons why I will continue to support the EU.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Here is a very clear paragraph:
    "2. When the Treaties confer on the Union a competence shared with theMember States in a specific area, the Union and the Member States may legislate and adopt legally binding acts in that area. The Member States shall exercise their competence to the extent that the Union has not exercised its competence. The Member States shall exercise their competence again to the extent that the Union has decided to cease exercising its competence."

    You accuse me of not understanding "The Member States shall exercise their competence to the extent that the Union has not exercised its competence."

    Its obvious: the EU can exercise its competence over shared competences when it sees fit.
    I'm aware that it says this, I don't understand why you keep quoting it. This isn't the part of your argument that I disagree with and I've explained this on numerous occasions. :facepalm:
 
 
 
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