Do we need a British Islam? (BBC Big Questions) Watch

Poll: Do we need a British Islam?
Yes (10)
25.64%
No (29)
74.36%
carlskep
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#1
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#1
Muslims (liberal vs. conservative) debate among themselves on the issue of Islam's place in Britain.

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JerseyHouse
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#2
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#2
We need to do more for White English muslims, not enough representation/interest groups for native muslims.
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mariachi
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#3
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(Original post by carlskep)
Muslims (liberal vs. conservative) debate among themselves on the issue of Islam's place in Britain.]
and here, Adam Deen's considerations after the discussion http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/bl...british-islam/
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The_Last_Melon
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#4
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Yeah probably. There are so many polygamous white british that they would happily take a faith that condones it. Not sure how happy they'll be about submission though, I think Europeans have an instinctive disrespect of authority be it real or supernatural. Also I don't think "submission" is particularly conducive to survival in cold climates where usually overpopulation is not an issue.
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mkap
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#5
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#5
the vast majority of british muslims have integrated fine in British society. its the extreme ones who go OTT and ruin things for us by giving us a dumb label.
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BefuddledPenguin
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#6
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Adam Deen was the only rational person in that room, and he was the one who was attacked the most. Speaks volumes doesn't it?
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The_Last_Melon
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#7
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#7
That video is infuriating to start with. It's like someone wanting to be in your club, so you invite them in and they start smashing down your treehouse.
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Mjcal1
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#8
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#8
I don't get why liberal Muslims don't just leave Islam...they already have one foot out the door.
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EccentricDiamond
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#9
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#9
There are no British Muslims. Islam is an affront to enlightened European society. Islam is an insult and I cannot understand why Muslims who live in Britain choose to follow this repugnant religion.

MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE AND LEAVE ISLAM
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Mactotaur
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#10
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#10
(Original post by EccentricDiamond)
There are no British Muslims. Islam is an affront to enlightened European society. Islam is an insult and I cannot understand why Muslims who live in Britain choose to follow this repugnant religion.

MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE AND LEAVE ISLAM
'There are no British Muslims'

In 2011, there were over 70 thousand White British Muslims in the UK.

'Islam is an affront to enlightened European society'

That rather depends on how you define enlightened, doesn't it?

'I cannot understand why Muslims who live in Britain choose to follow this repugnant religion'

Probably the same reason there's still lots of people going to church despite not being very religious - for the sense of community that religion can foster.
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EccentricDiamond
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Mactotaur)
'There are no British Muslims'

In 2011, there were over 70 thousand White British Muslims in the UK.

'Islam is an affront to enlightened European society'

That rather depends on how you define enlightened, doesn't it?

'I cannot understand why Muslims who live in Britain choose to follow this repugnant religion'

Probably the same reason there's still lots of people going to church despite not being very religious - for the sense of community that religion can foster.
White Muslims who turn to Islam are no longer British.

I would say if you go to church you are religious.

And yes European society is enlightened which is why Muslims are desperate to live in Europe
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TheArtofProtest
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#12
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#12
(Original post by BefuddledPenguin)
Adam Deen was the only rational person in that room, and he was the one who was attacked the most. Speaks volumes doesn't it?
What? That the "persecuted" is always right? That people attack those who are right?


Adam Deen was attacked because he appeared as a representative of Quilliam which according to most government sources, has zero credibility within the Muslim community and has proven itself inept at even countering radicalization through their much maligned Prevent programme and their drawing up of a list identifying and classifying Muslim organisations according to their arbitrary definition of what constitutes an extremist.

Adam Deen, in that debate, also engaged in some dubious debating and general scaremongering. Yes, he brought up apostasy because it is a crime in some Muslim countries but it isn't at all relevant to Muslims in Britain today. Also, the way he tried to "trap" the Imam into supporting apostasy laws, and then discounted his opinion by rambling back to the 4 jurists suggests that he didn't come to debate, but to lecture his moral self-righteousness which I find to be an appalling trait when one is debating.

He could have talked about any of the issues plaguing Muslims in Britain today (drugs, gangs, prisons etc etc) and how a British Islam will play a positive role in helping to transform and get their lives back on track so that they contribute to society but instead, and like his employers, his focus is on irrelevant and aspects tangent to Islam in Britain, which for a counter-extremism quango, is very worrying.


Yes, leaving one's religion should not be punishable by death but I can't support Adam Deen on this one. He came to the debate with one point, and that was of apostasy, a concept which probably is irrelevant to the 3.5 million Muslims in the UK.
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Mactotaur
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#13
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(Original post by EccentricDiamond)
White Muslims who turn to Islam are no longer British.

I would say if you go to church you are religious.

And yes European society is enlightened which is why Muslims are desperate to live in Europe
'White Muslims who turn to Islam are no longer British'

The law would very much disagree with you.
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EccentricDiamond
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Mactotaur)
'White Muslims who turn to Islam are no longer British'

The law would very much disagree with you.
The law would dfine them as civically British. I am not talking about civic nationallity
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troubadour.
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#15
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#15
(Original post by mkap)
the vast majority of british muslims have integrated fine in British society. its the extreme ones who go OTT and ruin things for us by giving us a dumb label.
You don't have to be violent to be an extremist. :rolleyes: The views held by much of this 'vast majority' are decidedly not indicative of a successful integration into British society.
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mariachi
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#16
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#16
(Original post by TheArtofProtest)
leaving one's religion should not be punishable by death but I can't support Adam Deen on this one. He came to the debate with one point, and that was of apostasy, a concept which probably is irrelevant to the 3.5 million Muslims in the UK.
totally wrong, and the fact that the point was hotly debated is proof to that : and not only from a purely theoretical point of view, but also a practical one

apostates in the UK can go through very difficult times. Why don't you check with our ex-Muslim members ?
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mariachi
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#17
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#17
(Original post by EccentricDiamond)
I cannot understand why Muslims who live in Britain choose to follow this repugnant religion
while some of Islam's beliefs and rules may seem completely repugnant to us (in particular, physical punishments, treatment of women, homosexuals, apostates, non-Muslims, confusion between religion and State), what counts most is practice, more than abstract ideas. Muslims have been in actual fact integrating into British society more or less normally.

The present tensions (post 7/7, ISIS etc) are probably just an episode in the ongoing process. As I see it, for Muslims Islam is, most and foremost, an identity. It gives them a sense of personal value, and a feeling of belonging that general society does not give them

There may even be a sense of consolatory re-balancing to it. Muslims may feel discriminated, but they will tell themselves : I know the truth, and those people, who act so superior, don't. They are just stupid "kuffar".

So, it is a complex issue, and extremely interesting, from a social point of view. What is sure, in my view, is that a British Islam is already there : and of course we need it. With time, it will evolve, very much like all religions have : religions don't exist in a void. They reflect the lives of the people who belong to them.
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troubadour.
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#18
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#18
The irony of the woman wearing the niqab claiming that she participates in 'the wider society.' :facepalm:
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mariachi
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#19
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#19
(Original post by The_Last_Melon)
I think Europeans have an instinctive disrespect of authority be it real or supernatural.
I agree; And a very healthy one, I would say. With some exceptions: Nazis, Fascists, Communists, religious fanatics...

One of the warning signals are attacks on the freedom to ridicule : if you cannot ridicule the Secretary general, the Duce, the Pope, the "Prophets" and cult leaders, then something is going wrong
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Peroxidation
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#20
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#20
Ah I accidentally voted no instead of yes! >.<

https://carm.org/islamic-muslim-stat...a-isis-welfare
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa...ion-polls.aspx
https://www.politicalislam.com/stati...ning-of-islam/

This is why we need a new reformed version of Islam. Asking Muslims to abandon their religion is asking too much, but if we can work with them to create a new, humanitarian, non-violent Islam then we'll all be better off.
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